gekkogecko,

You may, of course, be correct, time will tell, but as the number of representative democracies has grown since that document first saw light, and continues to grow to the present, including the first ever contested Egyptian presidential election held this last Wednesday, I’d guess that reality has been more than a little unkind to those who have held different opinions.

Over the last 229 years, the ideals found in this document of human liberation have weathered many internal crises, and have withstood the intellectual competition of Monarchy, Fascism, Communism, and also runs like Theocracy.

Yes, I have read the Articles of Confederation, which became the ruling document of the nation after they were ratified by the last of the 13 American states, Maryland, in 1781, and am also aware why they were superseded by the current Constitution of the United States.

For what it is worth, the principle problem with the Articles was that Congress was too severely limited in its powers. It could not raise money by collecting taxes; it had no control over foreign commerce; it could pass laws but could not force the states to comply with them. The central government thus constituted was dependent on the willingness of the various states to carry out its measures, and often the states refused to cooperate. Another crippling difficulty was that the articles were virtually impossible to amend, so problems could not be corrected.

In the words of George Washington, the government created by the Articles of the Confederation was "little more than the shadow without the substance".

Note also that the preamble of the U.S. Constitution reads “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

In both the Declaration and the Constitution People come before the State.

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Eudaimonia

People like you Rabbit, are the ones that have the insight and knowledge in dealing with such an event. My concern is that the games of politics, as you have pointed out, are the PROBLEM! The absolute need to have people of competence in positions of responsibility is the utmost issue. NOT the game playing they keep pulling us into. The only thing I can repeat is …..

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Things sure are tranquil right now, eh? The welfare of many citizens was promoted?

It reminds me of the signs on the schoolyard closest to my apartment. They read "No Dogs Allowed" but it's the most popular place for people to take their dogs.

I've got to stress gekko's point about the reality of the situation. As much as people would like to call on quotes from Washington and from the Constitution, the affected citizens needed a leaner bureaucracy, easy on the fat/cronyism. I doubt many in the Houston Astrodome are seeking solace in the Constitution right now.

As long as they were not black or women....


The Constitution was not even written with their interest in mind, was it? Why would anyone ever seek solace in a document that was never meant to protect them or their rights?

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If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
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You are right that this is about blind faith and indifference Lixy. …and for being right………… I get to eat your panties

You are spot on that when we put somebody in office you know they are going to fill the ranks with THEIR people. The whole topic here is that they have to start filling the positions of responsibility with people that are qualified and not more politicians. There are knowledgeable people of every persuasion and philosophy. It is a case of defining the line of bureaucracy capable people. These can not be more politicians at the head of something that has to perform.

Anybody that remembers the TV series WKRP recalls “handle it, handle it”. We have to MAKE the Mr. Carlson’s put the Andy Travis’s in place.



I think I need some more of that special oxygen again Lixy.
:lust:

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That’s the FIRST place we must start with. The heads of ALL the MANY duties of government must be able managers and focused on the mission of the post and not the political objectives of the spin players. Katrina has given us the Ying and Yang model that we BETTER take to heart for everything from garbage collection to defending the country from hostility on the very basic level. We are not talking about even attempting top make improvements for our people or bettering the specie. We are demanding the foundations that allows the people to survive and peruse an existence that lets us work for a better life for ourselves and our descendants.

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You are right that this is not about blame. The obvious will be in front of us and they will continue to play their games like cheap magicians with their slight of hand. That IS their one and only expertise. It WILL be the people that overcomes this disaster and it will only be the people that force a change by SHOUTING that we see what the other hand is doing.

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I don’t believe it was designed to fail, but it IS the function of the rich & powerful to stay rich & powerful and using the government is the best way to ensure that happens. …… and that is FARRRRRRRRRRR from new. I’m not counting chickens before they’re hatched, but I do recognize the fox in the henhouse.

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There is no question that many conscientious civil servants are working for us, but it is the their management that CANNOT be allowed to be filled with ignorant ‘Old Boys’ ….. or ‘Old Girls’. I know you are well aware that good management of anything consists of careful planning, implementation, monitoring and review.

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It’s the game of politics that that has become the end goal instead of the means to serving the people.

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Your point is well taken Gekko. The ideals set down on paper are goals and guidelines to strive for and work with, but the manipulators of words seldom do so with the same goals in mind. They guard the palace but it’s not supposed to be from us. The subject here is separating the rhetoric of the politician from the objective they were put in place for. That seems to take an ax and a shovel in most cases.

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As much as it pains me to agree with HER, ^^^^ that sums up what this whole thing is concerning: the difference in the BS of politics and the realities of life. Katrina laid open the deep rooted status that permeates ALL levels of the systems and it is OUR responsibility to demand more competence.

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Lilith,

This criticism may be generalized as “What is a citizen” or “What is a human”. This is an example of what I was referring to as an internal crisis.

If the changing notion of what constitutes a human or a citizen could not be integrated into the structure of the ideals of democracy; if democracy could not move beyond the concept that a citizen had to be a free male real estate owner, then democracy would take a place in the Museum of Antiqued Ideas. That has not happened.

The philosophical underpinnings of the Declaration and the rather more practical foundation of the Constitution were not broken when the definitions of human and citizen changed. Ref Constitutional Amendments, 13, 15, 19, 26

As I recall, there was much bruhahah about the issues at the time.

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Eudaimonia

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! See, you get it!

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On the kinkometer, my kink measures as a sine wave.

Steph,

I will agree with you and all who call for a more efficient and effective local, state and federal bureaucracy. It is difficult to think why anyone would wish otherwise.

To extrapolate from the observed problems surrounding Hurricane Katrina and conclude that “…the basic function of government is to keep the rich and/or powerful in their positions of wealth & power…” is an intellectual leap too great for someone with my many limitations. Even those with whom I share only a few opinions seem also to demur at such challenging claims (see above).

I also feel that there is a higher probability of real, lifesaving change available through the ballot box than by raising one’s voice to ever higher decibels. The game of politics has always been the goal of politicians; that is their profession. I believe that on this item there is a general consensus. How to refocus their attention to substantive issues seems to be immediate. LixyChick’s proposal that the electorate examine the candidates “before the election…not after the disaster” seems particularly useful to this end. I note concurrence with satisfaction.

The only other useful tool that comes to mind in regards to improving these services is the Court system. The various and sundry government agencies are often bound by law to perform certain duties. The occasional court order can help them remember forgotten commitments. Not being overly active (other than at the ballot box) in matters environmental, I am skating on thin ice here, but I am under the impression the “environmental movement” has found the Federal Bench a useful tool in compelling the EPA to execute Congress’s will, even in the face of Administration resistance. Perhaps gekkogecko may be able to shine additional light on the subject.

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Eudaimonia