I'm to impressed not to post, out of al the boards i have been on any religus matter tend to get out of hand, peopel have so strong feelings either way that they tend to get angry and loos self controle.

Obviesly a board full of peopel who enjoy sex alot is alot more civalised.

Religion is not the root of problems in it self, the problem usaly arise when someone deside that their religon shold be the only religon whit usaly come from a personal desier to be the only one how rule the world.

I dont think that there have been many major war in history that have been soley based on the idea of religon, most of the time it's just been a realy good reason to use.

Someone one's mde the outragus statement that 99% of the worlds belive in a higher power, and that many peopel cant be wrong.

The thing about belifes (and i'm not diminiching any one who belive) is that it's very very personal and inpresise there are no two belifes that can be exactly alike unlike sience that is very very inpersonal and presise.

If you ask two houndrar peopel to draw a face of god, you will get two hundrad very difrent pictures atleast NON will be exactly alike that is the beuty of it if YOU belive it's realy your belife.

Sience is the other way around, if you ask two houndrad peopel to wright the forumula for water you would get alot of H2O... simpel but very impersonal it's the way sience work

The problem today is that sme peopel want to make these two incompatibul IE Creatisem/Evolotion.

This so explisitly explains the problem we have today where peopel want to force belifes in to a system of education based on fact and sience and you can't be scientific about Delifes you just have to belive you cant teach someone to belive.

but you can teach about religon, but not just about one about all the major religons today.

And to break up the tedium of a bread and butter religon like Cristianity and Muslim throw in Greek religon or norse religon come on a little hammer weilding giant smaching God can hurt every ones in a while... or why not a god how ocationaly go horney climbed down olympis and got freaky whit the lockal humans.

Today as i see it we have peopel who say NO religon in school, and peopel that say only religon in shool.

myself i think we need to meet in the middel, pray in school... probobly not so much learn about cristianity and islam probobly a good idea.

I troly belive thow that part of the matter and problem is for religon to start to admmit that proven science need to be acsepted, it cant be ignored or fought any longer, this go for both muslim and Cristians.

Muslims must change it's veiws on matters of women, or we need a race of amazon women to kick there ass either way will do... ( i prefer the Amazon would love to see that... noting would be more fun... hehe tie him to the bed in that burka)

An catholics will you PLEASE tell the Pope to stop fearing the condom PLEASE we are alittle to over populated right now as it is... not to mention Aids... it's out there.. and it's bad.

Oh and... um... all of the above... can you leave gay's alone... trust me they wont turn you gay if you do... they promise.

The problem whit religon today is Fear, fear that if what is true (science) realy turn out to be... TRUE and they admit it... they will loose peopel beliving in god and on the same coin i think some of them actuly do belive that if peopel pray in school... they will start to belive in god.

Got to stop...

Belive what you want, or what you dont want... it's ok realy.

And i hope it stay that way

Admiral,

Yessir! The idea of a course on comparative religions has been mentioned in other threads here. An interesting idea, I think. Still, here in the States there is a fine line one must tread when seeking to teach in publicly funded schools about religious matters. It would need to be crafted carefully so as to not favor one over the others. Another difficult might be when to offer such a course. Primary or secondary school? Early or late?

It could be quite difficult to get the right balance.

Personaly i belive religon should go tandem whit history while i dont belive that Religon should be considerd history they pretty much go together.

Teach about them during the apropriate time and place in history, weight should probobly be on the subject at around 6-7-8's grade when children start to express understanding and start to excsert there own identety.

Children's influence of religon do not and will never come from school good or bad, it will be from Parental guidens, in a perfect world i would not think that children should be introdused to organiced religon untill they are atleast teen's so they can for there own opinion whit out the guidence from parents.

This is ofcourse imposibul, and i would never asume to sugest the enforcment of this thing.

From waht i see over here it's not religon in itself that is a problem, it's right wing exstreamist Cristian groups that want cristian teachings in school, they probobly would not like is islam and Hindu was given as much attention as cristianity, as now nighter is given any attention.

Myself i belive that Religon is an important lesson learnd in socialogy, history, etics and morality it's not everything... but it's something very interesting that learn, and for peopel who might find the ideas of budda, Jesus or Muhamed should be given the chance to know what they where talking about and find out if it belong in their world.

I do NOT belive that Private schools that are based on a religus fait is a good idea... that is plain stupid, i do not mean to offend any one but putting a child in school that teach only relion is dumb in any part of the world, Arab, Amerikan or Swedich and we found out that the bad way a fea years ago where muslim privat schools proved to be ignoring swedich child laws and teaching laws, not to mention that a school based on a religon would not be able to be objectiv of things that when aginest the religus practis.

I would LOVE to hear a devoted teacher who belived in the word of the bible or Koran teach about Evolotion and the age of the earth.

Children need to have a place where they can think free, on EVERY subject whit out teachers hampering their ideas, but still guided to learn what we know to be true, they need to learn about both the physical work of science, as well as the basics of the metaphysical work or religon, they need to learn why the Hindu belive in so many difrent gods, they could probobly do good in learning how closly related Islam and Cristianity is, learn alittle more about judisem.

And contrary to what cristians belive you can find peopel who do NOT belive that LOVE religon who can teach religon on an inbias level, becase you need someone who can teach... not preach a religon.

Just becase i dont belive, peopel who do tend to belive i think they are stupid, and sadly most of the time that work in revers as well.

Religon is a state of mind, beliving in something, we all belive in things religon is just an organasation of peopel beliving in the same thing,

just becase i do not belive in the same things, that dont meen that i activly belive that they are wrong, simply that i dont belive.

Religon is a dificult complex, my personal belife is that true religon can not excist is it's forced, if it's forced it's more enforced culture then belife... how can a person truely belife in something if he have never been given teh chanc e to belive in something ells?

Thins leadds us back to the problem whit Islam, becase today large populus of Islam is in a 'forced' belife system... you can belive either in islam and Allah... or be stoned to death... not a to big a choice i do belive.

These peopel do not 'belive' becase they 'BELIVE' but becase beliving is the only thing they have ever known, it's there culture to belive.

This mirrors the dark age of europ, you belived or you where burnt.

Today we are alittle more open, but it's important that we grab and hold on to the freedom to belive, but freedom to belive do not give teh freedom to force other to belive like they do.

I'm sure noting of that made much sence but hey i'm swedich... what do we know?

Actually, you make as good or better sense to me than some folks for whom English is a first language

I do find myself wishing for sub-titles on your posts, but anyway...I like the way you think...I think...

__________________
Plug me into somethin'

If the theory does not conform to the facts, then the facts must be discarded.

No good deed ever goes unpunished

Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level, & beat you with experience.

Admiral,

I wouldn’t get too worked up about non-public education in the U.S. if I were you. The overwhelming majority, 85% or so, of primary and secondary schoolchildren attend publicly funded schools. Of the 13% (approx.) who attend non-public schools, only three quarters of that are “faith based”. They may make a lot of noise and grab many headlines, but there just aren’t that many to get excited about.

One of the best things about non-public schools is that they offer a choice. Depending upon your child’s strengths and weaknesses, you can select a school which seems most suitable. The public schools are getting in on that act with “anchor” schools, but they are limited in what they can offer. Non-public schools also offer an alternative to shockingly poor public schools. Here in Baltimore City, the public school system is abysmal – unbelievably bad. Rather than cripple my children, my wife and I sent them to parochial schools.

I’m sure that everyone agrees with you about how silly it would be to put a child in a school that teaches only religion. I just don’t know of any. Both of my children went to Archbishop Borders School for their primary education. My son went to Archbishop Curley High School, my daughter to the Institute of Notre Dame – both pretty standard Catholic high schools. They all offered unexceptional curricula: English, Phys Ed, Mathematics, Foreign Language, Chem, Bio & Physics, etc.

Religious studies at both high schools introduced religions other than Christianity. Granted, the primary focus was on the Christian message, but at least they were exposed to something other than the norm. As you pointed out, it is quite difficult to get an even playing field when dealing with religious matters.

__________________
Eudaimonia

Admiral ~ Excellent posts. It may not be the easiest to read, but it's worth the 'struggle' of reading to see your viewpoint. I agree with a great deal of what you have to say. Glad to have you in on the discussion.

__________________
Put me on wheels and I'll turn tricks.

Clever? Nah, I ran out of that years ago. But if you find this, let me know, k?
"The road goes ever on..." ~ Tolkien

In memory of my friend skip...
Go then, there are other worlds than these

thank you Aqua those a kind words,

jseal, I can see what you meen... it's just sad to see that so much of public school is run down and considerd 'less' favorabul to privat schools but i understand the dilema.

and personaly i would rather put my kid's threw a private school if they where better then public school then to alow them to atende a worse choise jut to make a point.

I think my point thow is that public school dont have to be bad, almost all of the swedich school system is public and is whit some exceptions an excolent school system, i know it cant be translated to how the us school system is organiced but i get the feeling from listening to the political debating that Public is inherently bad, some republicans have even called it comunist thinking.

I think the point i was aiming for was simply that public schools would be able to provide a stabule teaching on religon that is unbias in contradiction ot a privatly founded muslim or cristian school, i have read horror stories where the word Eveolotion was baned, or where saying that the earth was millions of years old was hushed and the term "Very Very VERY old was to be used".

Or my own personal favorit... sexual education... taht in sweden is Mandatory to the muslim comunety's horror and they tried to escape this threw starting private schools... and also go around the mandatory mixed classes boy's and girls can NOT be class seperated in sweden... this caused a scream in muslims becase it mean that children can be 'forced' to bath together in a swiming pool.

This is ofcourse a cultural matter that we cant just go, HEY this is sweden this is how we do things ACSEPT it... but i think it should be explained that in sweden things are like this, this is our law and this is why we belive this way.

Religon should be in a religon class, it should not be in any other subject (apart from hystory perhaps) there should not be a debate wheater relion based creation should be taught in school on the same level as Evolotion, religon based ideas on the age of earth should not be taught as is there is evidense to the subject.

And most of all, Right wing religus fundamental ideas should STAY OUT OF SEXUAL EDUCATION! Leave the condoms alone, leave contraseptivs alone leave SEX alone, yes i belive that sex betwine young teenagers are probobly not the greatest of ideas but saying that it's moraly wrong and think that ambsinence is the answere is just playin stupid.

Forcing women to wear clothing that hide them becase of islamic ideas that women are tempting and should be supressed, is wrong claming in any sence that a man can be apolagiced from rape and blame a woman for dressing provocativ sickens me but this is what many arab coutries law say, and what many muslim fundamental peopel belive... Rape is a crime yes... but only the person raped becase she ofrouce tempted them to rape her.

Right now areound the world fundamental relius groups are breathing fresh air, not just muslims but cristians as well... i cant help but think that it's a bad idea to play as hard as bush do about his cristian agenda when you hear him given questions of the Rapture is comeing.

We are starting to thread on the things that make the western world great, and that greatness is diversety of spirit... we are not in a war of religon but a war of ideals of exstream...

and to fight this war our leaders continue to push away from our greatness further in to the exstream... where civil liberties are trampled on where lies are used to further agendas all in the name of freedom...

Is Freedom at the price of Liberty realy worth it? and is it realy Freedom.

When a very close and dear freind of my family passed away fron canser in 2002, an illness that we ironicly and cruly found out about on the same day as 9/11 2001... i wrote a poem from her funeral, this is the last two lines...

"While today might bring us heartache pain and sorrow.

Remember there will alwayes be a new tomorrow."

Pain and anger make is hard to see that the hardest and most worse sitovation will still become the past the next day, it might take time but there are very few finaleties, most of them have timelimit's... in 2004 my gf felt pretty down about bush being elected a second term, and i could understand her, (she is amerikan btw and still live in the USA) but it was still just 4 years, two of witch have soon passed.

Weather you agree whit Bush is not realy the point of my little rambel, but more that the sitovation we are in now will pass, there is not a great 'end' coming we wont one day seize to be... unless you do belive in the rapture i guess but that is another thing altogether i guess.

Alot of peopel, good peopel are going to suffer before we come to 'tomorrow' and they should not have to do so becase a bounch of peopel belive that their way is the only way... and right way.

I want freedom, i want Liberty but i dont want either taken for the protection of the other... Not for muslim fundamentalistic ideolagy, Or for a "crusade of freedom" for peopel who dont understand what they are doing.

A realy good freind of mine and former of Irak told me back in 2003 when Bush can't sucseed in Irak they way they want becase they dont understand what they are doing... he was hopefull that they would get rid of saddam but he knew that it would not work.

you have two cultures the compleat oposit of each other two ideals that are so compleatly razor edge defined difrence that you cant make it work threw force.

Noting illustrated this more then what happens in Afganistan where a cristian is about to get executed after converting... and bush and the western cristian society is suprised and angerd.

I'm not saying it's right far from it but it defines the problem, there are SO many major problem in Afganistan, problems created in the lat few years that need to be adressed that are on a so much bigger scale then a lone mane who converted to cristianity.

But it's that one issue that these peopel get worked up about, In afrika Famin and Hiv is causing to much suffering... and bush get's hung up and funding founding to organcations that help whit sex educations contraseptics medical treatments... becase they also advocate Abotion rights and contraseptics... for the many very very young pregnant teens who in many cases are raped and HIV infected.

Sometimes you need to look at the whole picture and not simply put on blinders and capture one problem and let the others slip out of their hands, and i have to wounder if the world would ahve reacted as outraged... if the man in Afganistan was Gay instead of cristian... becase so far no one hvae cared to notise those who die becase of who they Love, not belive

Yeh, I was trying to say what Aqua said, in my own smartass fashion...

__________________
Plug me into somethin'

If the theory does not conform to the facts, then the facts must be discarded.

No good deed ever goes unpunished

Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level, & beat you with experience.

Admiral,

I believe that most public school systems here are adequate – Baltimore City Schools just happen to be stunningly bad. With 85% of the nation’s pupils in public schools it is most likely that the worst schools will be public (I just wish they were somewhere else).

I’m not so down on religion as some are, the latest in peer-reviewed research indicates that weekly attendance at religious services accounts for an additional 2 to 3 years of life. Remember also that the tens of millions deaths caused by Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, and Communist China can hardly be attributed to religious fundamentalism. I still see intolerance as a human rather than a religious limitation.

I’m uncomfortable with the “clash of two cultures” idea. My take is that it is more complex. The culture of Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim nation, is quite different from that of Saudi Arabia, where Mecca and Medina are located. Try telling a German or better yet, a Frenchman that his culture is essentially the same as America’s.

__________________
Eudaimonia

Debates on wheter religon was involved in Natzi genocide or have been put back and forth for many years, while i belive that it was not a major brance i think we can all agree that the european cristian comunety in natzy freindly nation didnt mind getting rid of the jews, but more fundamentaly it ahve more in comon whit the religus 'problems' that we see today then we might think.

It's the fundamental groups that create the problems Natzi, Comunist party in Russia or china may no be religus in nature but i think we can all agree that they come from a fundamentalism ideals so the difrense become rather mute.

The problem is not in basis the religon itself but the peopel that twist it in to a fundamental ideolegy.

No culture is the same, USA is a very unik culture thow, sence it share it's 'vestern' culture whit pretty much every european coulture, whit it's 'real' own is the native Amerikans... creating a very mixed but seperated culture that is cuite unik something you wont find anywhere in any singel european country, the difrence of the country dont realy play in as much, the suadi are the way it is becase they have the money to controle a fundamental society whit an iron fist whti the help of every contry in the world, it's one of the most teribul countries treating it's citisence and women ... rather badly.

but we need the oil so we play nice, more fundamental islamic terrorists come out of Saudi Arabia then most other countries combined... this is the birth country of Bin laden.

Indonesia is VERY difrent, but still have it's problem but mostly from outside Islamic fundamentalist wanting to shape the contry in to a fundamentalistic state.

As refernce to living longer as a religus atendence, i tend not to pay atention to statistic like taht sence it's not realy very acurat and the science behind it is rather new, you might want to consider that over the last 50 years doctors ahve stated that a glass of wine a day is good for you, another doctor say it's bad for you and a third say good a forth say bad over and over doctor ahve argued this statistics and it's still raging on.


I have very little agine Religon in fact i love it, it's fasinating stuff, i have a problem whit peopel using religon for there own personal crusade telling me that i'm wrong for not beliving os contradicting astabliched sience and generaly causing health problems.

1, Teaching Evolotion
2, Teaching Age of Earth
3, stem cell Resertch
4, Sexuality issues/education
5, Homosexuality this pisses me of the most i think.
6, Abortion

To me these are a few of the issues that religus groups should plainly stay the hell away from, i belive tehy should be debated under etical guidlines but those guidelines should not be dictated from religus belifes as we see today in the USA under Bush, If you have a religus person who is also a resertcher in the feild of Stem Cell resertch no problem on the issue but he atleast need to KNOW what it is they they need to astablich etical ground for.

And no one will convince me that Bush is to keen on the higher points of what Stem Cell's are.

jseal, i hope you dont take any of these as if i feel Religon should be slapped in teh backseat, realigon is a wounderfull thing that breing meaning to peopels life, a code of conduct and a sence of belogning and a belife in a higher power.

But i cant belive that it should have a positon of political Influence over peopels life whome do not belive in these things, or belive in other things then the 'norm'.

right now that is what we see in the middel east, we see it in China whit the Comunisem... and i see dangerus parts of it in the curent administration in USA.

I do apolagice for these long running posts i usaly just have alot to say.

Some of us also wonder if he's too keen on where his brain stem is, for that matter...

__________________
Plug me into somethin'

If the theory does not conform to the facts, then the facts must be discarded.

No good deed ever goes unpunished

Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level, & beat you with experience.

Admiral,

If verbiage be the food of learning, speak on. Give me excess of it! With apologies to William Shakespeare…

I shall respond to your issues above presently. For the moment, let me say that the fact you and I disagree on some of the issues is only to be expected. We are different people with different visions of the here and now, and of the future – based upon different histories and cultures. What I find pleasing is that you do so without animosity or rancor.

__________________
Eudaimonia

i'm looking forward to your responce, and glad you took my post as the way it was intended.

Admiral,


If you are suggesting that intolerance, whether secular or religious, is based on a rigid and unyielding interpretation of some ideology, then we are in complete agreement. It is precisely such an arbitrary interpretation of Islam that serves as the basis for “Muslim extremists” or “Islamic fundamentalists”, etc. This type of “us versus them” mentality in the U.S. led to the Red Scare hysteria exploited by Senator Macarthy in the early 50s.

It might be a good idea to take the time to read the article before dismissing the research. Ignoring the facts is what extremists do when confronted by evidence which runs counter to their beliefs.

In re people using religion to further their own agenda; well, people have been doing so since the beginning of recorded history, do so today, and will I suspect, continue to do so forever – or until it stops serving their purpose. This, I think, speaks volumes about how people follow and are led, but says very little about religion.

If, when you refer to ethics, you refer to the rules or standards governing the conduct of an individual, then you will find that many, if not most, people’s ethical choices and behavior are attempts to do what is “right”. For better or worse, religions claim to provide the knowledge to identify what is right, and how to make those choices correctly.

Should or ought religion influence political decisions? I certainly wouldn’t want to try to prevent that from happening. Doing so would be intolerant of the belief systems of other citizens. I would say what others have said – that an educated electorate is needed for an effective democracy. If political debates and arguments are taken to the literate and numerate voters of this fair republic, and the voters are persuaded one way or another, then “vox populi, vox Dei” – if you’ll pardon the expression.

__________________
Eudaimonia

Indeed, but i dont think Macarthy would fall in to the same catagory even if it have simular efects Fundamentalisem is on a larger scale and usaly involve an idiolagy of total obedience and controle.

Macarthy more as you say played on The unrational fear of comunisem to his own ends.

Your right about Peopel using Religon to there own agenda not realy portraying the religon, but the person whit the Agenda... but the point is more that Religon is more a perfect medium in the past becase of it's inflexabuility of organised religon, I think we can all agree whit that there was not much chance to disobay the catholic leaders during much of europs past not matter how much might might think it's not the messige of the bible that is being presued or practised, but agine to these peopel the messige become what ever we want it to be.

My reference to Ethics is simply a rule of conduct, there is no SET ethics that refer to every path of life, but instead it need to be worked out in regards to difrent things, I belive in being flexibel whit out it we risk becoming entangled in the problem of ethics.

but in essence it's 'Right and Wrong' a subject we all hold a very difrent view on in both law and culture.

For exampel, in sweden for the state to practis Execution Is not Ethical, in some States in the USA it is, that dont make these places UnEthical only that we see that etichal points difrent.

That creates the main problem of Ethics today, the point i was trying to make in my own point of view is that Ethics should not be influenced by Religus belifes.

I remember the when before Bush Adressed the subject of Stem cell resertch he actuly consulted the Pope about it when visited him, and said that the Pope brought up some interesting points.

And i think we Can all agree, whit no disrespect to the Pops inteligence but on a scientific level nighter of the two would have much knowlige on the issue.

Having had a problematic medical history witch have resulted in inevital problems in my future Stem Cell resertch in to the promesing feild of Organ repair, not involving cloaning, or the much debated fetal stem cell resertch it makes me and others angry that this resertch get set back decades on the basis of religus arguments.

Gay issues are another subject that is being for lack of a better word attacked threw political Religus manuvering, these are issues that should be not be in the realm of religus considerations.

Abortion is alwayes a charged issue so i will try and be diblomatic about it, in Sweden this is a right as obvius as freedom of religon, for any political group to even sugest toutching this right comit political suaside, so this is something that i personaly from a cultural stand point obviesly feel very strong for, the my point is the same from above, considerations should be made from a medical standpoint as to what life is, not religus.

As in reference to "vox populi, vox Dei" i belive rought translated "voice of the peopel, Voice of God" in no offence i belive you should look up where that came from i dont know if you know but "Vox Populi, Vox Dei" is from a much longer sentence stated by a munk to 'Charles the Great' saying. "you should not listen to the peopel whom keep saying, the voice of people is the voice of God, since the acts of that crowd is alwayes close to madness" Or something like that, just a bit of trivia... i meen no offence as to the saying.

The problem to me whit Religon in Politics is that it can never satisfy two difrent religons, if you elect a muslim, and he acts in acordance to islamics belifes some of those will be incompaticel whit Cristian, and the same whit cristian and it will perhaps whit out intente guide some of his politics.

This is the reason for the seperation of churche and state is most countries, it's to keep Religus issues outside politics it's not perfect adn ti's not realy working, and i know that to realy stop religon in poletics cant be done but i would like to see a rule that stop peopel from using religus arguments in politics.

This is a Very dificult subject and i dont have all the right answeres... infact i hardly have any especialy 4am in the morning.

It all come down to a very simpel fact, we all belive wheater we want to or not, albe it not in the same things, most of us belive in everyday things things that are tangebul, things that are proven facts... some belive in bigfoot some belive in Aliense abducting peopel...

Others belive whole heartedly in God

Others in Allah

Even others in Budda

The list go on and on...

To me as long as someone dont look to their belife and belive they are superior and the only belife alowed, and that I cant belive difrently or act difrently love difrently or look difrently.... all of these belives are wounderus and fantastic... all of them hold some truth in them, weather they to you hold mirecals or coinsidents fact or fiction proof or theory... they should be respected for that they are, how they have changed the life and history of so many peopel.


Unfortunatly history also who us how religon have been abused... this is what we must guard aginest and not repeat the horros past be it the cristians in Rowanda, or Muslims at 9/11...

The problem is Not RELIGON thow... it's Hate and fear... unfortunatly... in this world there is no lack of either.