I have been asking around my UK and European liberal open-minded friends today about this question. Whilst we all know people who have tried an open marriage, we don't know any that have lasted as a result.

I don't mean open relationships, these do not require the taking of vows to bind the committment. I have no problem if you want to renegotiate your vows/committment but in a way this would seem to me like the original marriage is over and a new one has started. Same relationship maybe, but a different marriage.

On another issue, I support gay marriage, precisely because children aren't the only or best reason for marriage, but because people are willing to make vows on their committment to each other.

People happily took the "obey" out of the vows - just ask the vicar or state official to take out the bit about honouring with your body and being faithful.

On a lighter note, I actually got married in a foreign language and didn't understand a word - so personnally I have no idea what I committed to.

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Vigil, if you were my husband, I would give you poison.

Madam, if you were my wife, I would take it.

As a very petite woman residing in the deep South (in the USA) I am used to some condescension. But it still surprises me when it happens in Pixie's.
Leigh calls these "drive by condesensions"- off hand comments that mean a lot when you look deep--

"My understanding of the difference between repression and oppression is that the former tries to stop something happening through the pressure of morality and the latter through a legal structure" -Vigil

Webster:
"Repression": (you have to go to the root, "Repress" for this one )1 a : to check by or as if by pressure : CURB b : to put down by force

"Oppression" Function:noun
1 a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power


"then I totally respect a decision that you can begin to put yourself first again. What I don't like is people (men and women) who put themselves first before they have fulfilled the obligations that they made when committing to a marriage, unless of course both parties went into the committment with the shared objective of having an open relationship."-Vigil

"so personnally (sic) I have no idea what I committed to."- Vigil

"I see sex as a symbolic statement within a partnership. It goes beyond physical grunting."...."This is why I don't run around casually spreading my legs."--sweetlady

"Well...isn't it interesting how almost all discussions here evolve into history lessons lately... "-scotzoidman
(love, history is how we got here, and probably where we are going)

"I am no more going to go on a guilt trip about historical oppression and repression of women than I am for the slave trade. I learn about these things in History with a view to their hopefully never happening again and certainly not with my support." --Vigil

This "History" is happening around you RIGHT NOW my sweets, and you really need to look around more. The West IGNORED the Taliban until they attacked us. The horrible lives of Afghani women wasn't in the USA's "best interest" to do anything about.
Slavery is alive and well in the Middle East, especially the Sudan.
Try reading up on Indian "dowry murders" and other kinds of "honor killings" I understand this is becoming a problem in the UK too.
Look up what happened here in the USA to Teena Brandon, a lesbian who posed as a man. When her male "friends" found out, they raped and murdered her.

From the web site "infoforhealth.org"
"Around the world at least one woman in every three has been beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in her lifetime. Most often the abuser is a member of her own family. Increasingly, gender-based violence is recognized as a major public health concern and a violation of human rights."

Yeah, right, it's history.
Ok, you won't support it, but will you fight it?
I do EVERY DAMN DAY!!!!!!!!!!!

"I think that sex is implicitly important to a marriage and each couple needs to ensure that their needs and desires are met in a permissive and encouraging manner.....if this means going outside of the marriage with the other's full consent and approval then so be it....if not, then fine, no one's suggesting that it becomes compulsory" Loulabelle (((**HUGS**))) thank you hon!!!!
And of course Lil, and CowGirlTease, Vullkan, (why should the majority define marriage? but I ALMOST agree with you) Cassi, who found her own scholarship to add, as did Sharni, and Irish... who can disagree with me without insulting me. (If I ever come see you I am going to kiss you no matter what your wonderful wife says, so there!!!!)

BUT!! right now I am angry beyond anymore words!
It seems to say here that I am a selfish, immature slut, putting my own lusts and desires ahead of all else... a girl who married too early, and that is why I am so whatever you think I am!!!
At least that is what some people are suggesting.

'Bye for a while, at least, maybe, I don't know.

W

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"I wondered, am I a lesbian, am I straight, or bisexual? Then I realized that I am just a slut.
So where's MY parade?"

---Margaret Cho

WW, you are definitely NOT a selfish, immature slut. You're just passionate...and I think you're awesome for not being afraid to let your opinions known.
I think its just hard for those who have not been in such a relationship to understand completely?
I hope you stay around here...we need another sexy New Orleans woman around here.

*big hug*

Cassiopeia

WW~ ((hugs)) don't allow yourself to be personally offended by people who have not taken the time to get to know you personally. They speak in generalities and not in specifics. You and I both know that when people take time to share ideas and get to know one another's viewpoints, personal animosity is much less likely and often we are able to expand eachother's ways of thinking.

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The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

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"Beware how you take away hope from another human being."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes

May I establish that this thread is about "open Marriage". Marriage as I understand it sanctioned by the state (what interest the state should have in your personal relationships would be another good thread). But official marriage supposedly bound by vows that we make to each other amongst other things.

If you are not married then the context of this thread has nothing to do with your chosen lifestyle and please do not take my comments to be aimed at you.

Many of the other issues raised here would make very interesting threads and I hope that they are started.

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Vigil, if you were my husband, I would give you poison.

Madam, if you were my wife, I would take it.

WW---I COMMEND you for standing up for what YOU believe!As you know,you
only have to satisfy,what YOU believe,not someone else.As I have said before,you only have to make the person happy,that looks back from the mirror!As said before-If you don't stand for something,you'll fall for anything!
Irish

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Irish---Better to be dead & cool,then alive & uncool!
(Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man)

In a perfect world that would be nice but every person who reads this thread will be affected by what they read regardless of their marital status. No one else should attempt to define my morality. If I am not harming you then what I do in my bedroom or a bedroom in Seattle is my affair, literally. Luckily, I am not phased by what some people assume are the reasons I live my life the way I do.

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The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

Lil, this would make it almost impossible to say anyhting, as you would be responsible for a context that someone else may take your comments in. I wouldn't want people to hold back from expressing an opinion for fear of upsetting someone they don't know on the other side of the world.

I appreciate that I posted a crappy ill-composed late night response, and Sixsense I apologise for what has happened to your thread.

I don't think its too hard a distinction to understand, married or not married - why else do so many people ask you?

My experience of open marriages is like Scotzoid's - usually one partner is not being honest and I can't find anyone who knows one that has been successful. Anyone?

Your situation Lil, is a new one for me, and you describe a mature loving issue that is being honestly explored. You know I wish you and Mr. Lil well in this, but the evidence of experience suggests that you are treading a dangerous path as you clearly understand.

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Vigil, if you were my husband, I would give you poison.

Madam, if you were my wife, I would take it.

The issue I take is that you made assumptions as to the reasons people have made these choices and your assumptions were in my opinion unkind and I hope when you look back you realize that when you make assumptions about people just because they are or live differently than you do that you are compartmentalizing them in boxes. I know that you surely do not think I belong in the boxes you originally subscribed to those people who participate in open lifestyles. At least I hope you don't. Because I have always afforded you more respect than that and am sure you afford me the same.

I felt bad that the topic got off to such a bad start and that people have felt hurt but that is what judging and condemnation tend to wreak. Havoc.

__________________

The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

You need to not take it personal. I'm entitled to the opinion that if I ran around having sex, I would be demeaning the sexual act and it would be "spreading my legs for anything that moved." That's my judgement of ME if I were to do that, WITH THE WAY THAT I FEEL ABOUT SEX. You don't view it the way I do. In case you hadn't noticed. Thus my judgements of a person who feels as I do and treats sex causally DON'T APPLY TO YOU, unless YOU apply them to yourself.

My point is that there's no need for you to be offended by my remarks unless you want to be.

Not so Lil- but you are right, assumptions are the cause of much havoc and misery.

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Vigil, if you were my husband, I would give you poison.

Madam, if you were my wife, I would take it.

I think that couples who have got the 'open marriage' thing right are often pretty discrete about with whom they share this information. Knowing your views on the issue, I also doubt they would ever let you in on that detail of their personal life, for fear of being attacked or thought less of.

By the way, your comment after Prophet's post about this thread not being meant for people who are not married jars with me, since it appears to be a response to what Prophet said about my relationship with Fussy. I'd have thought you'd have to be on a different planet not to realise that Fussy and I have just booked our wedding, since there have been at least 2 threads about it in the last couple of months.

We are in a position where we are going into marriage in a 18 months time, and have made it clear to each other the terms of our marriage. I feel that our sexual habits (and I would count sex with other partners in an open relationship to be part and parcel of 'our sex life') are not something to be shared and declared at the time of our wedding. Just as I'm not intending on making any vows about whether I'm going to particpate in oral sex, anal sex, or masturbation with or without my husband. Quite frankly it's no-one else's business but ours. I believe that the marriage vows referring to faithfulness (I know in the religious ceremony it is described as 'forsaking all others') mean emotional faithfulness, that is not being 'unfaithful'. I do not believe that a sexual act with someone outside of the marriage with the other partner's full knowledge and 'approval' is not being unfaithful, however I feel in a relationship where no such terms have been agreed that even a passionate kiss or the desire to have a relationship with another is unfaithful, if it is kept from the other partner.

My point, in short is that marriages differ for each couple in all sorts of details (are you the kind of couple who does everything together, or are you the kind of couple who have very separate lives? etc) and surely a couple's sex life is one of those details? I think that the traditional marriage ceremony is intentionally ambiguous about faithfulness and sexual fidelity (ironically, probably because it was thought up by a man!) and I think that people are let of that hook far easier than they are let off the one about 'honouring with thy body'. Methinks in the past when one partner ceases to consent to sex with their spouse, that the spouse feels that the contract of marriage has already been broken, allowing them the freedom to have sex with others.......and that aspect of the marriage vows is surely far more destructive.

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"Time flies like an arrow -
Fruit flies like a banana"

M Y - N A U G H T Y - P I C T U R E S ! !

Irish , Well said . Their is someone out there for everyone , I think the problem today is "We' settle for the first thing that comes along then when He or She don't fit what "WE" want or "WE" see someone better looking "WE" walk away from our Chosen ones for what "WE" think is better .

IMHO if ya want to Fuck around don't get married , But there again I am an OLD Biker , and Have views that don't conform to Most People's Idea of Normal , So Who am I to Judge .

Now as to Changing Some other Country or religion to match ours , Let me ask you this "How would you feel if someone came to your country and told you How to act , Or treat your spouse ?"

Vigil I agree with you , Hang in there .

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If I have to explain it you wouldn't understand

Don't Judge Me By Your Ignoance

I had Rather Be Hated for What I am Than Loved For What I am Not .

WW , The Last time I checked , Majority Did rule . Or at least in my part of the country . So If the Majority define what marrage is the you either have to abide by it or break the law . In Most States Helments are required by Law , a Law I don't agree with but if I am in those States that requre me to wear a skid lid I do . Or pay the price . If ya don't like a law Change it , But don't get bent out of shape if someone fights you on it .

I have not called you a slut ( a Term I reserve for my ex-wife) Nor have I said you were Immature , or Ignorant . I think you are very Passionate in your views , and Believe strongly enough in them to stand up for them . I applaude you for this . I only wish more People did the same but saddly most people are Sheep and wish to be led .

Everyone has their own likes and dislikes thats why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors , everyone has thier own tastes .

People like to Put down America , Talk about whats wrong Here . Well Folks I have been all over the world , Mid-East , Europe , South America , Africa . And Let me tell you This This is the Best Country On The Face Of Gods Earth . You think you have it bad , Hell you have a Fantastic life , what most would call poor in most Countries of the world you would be Middle Class .

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If I have to explain it you wouldn't understand

Don't Judge Me By Your Ignoance

I had Rather Be Hated for What I am Than Loved For What I am Not .