11-01-2005, 02:10 PM
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pixie of the wood
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,575
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osuche, i think this is a fascinating topic, hence the following treatise 
imo, world religion classes should be offered in high school with at least three credits required for graduation. it should be taught in the most factual way it can be. even… especially… the major modern religions should be taught with the same adherence to strict fact. there should never be any judgement attached…ever; any information we have or have surmised should be taught with the ultimate goal of enlightenment in intellectual, historic and world cultural capacities. the same goes for science.
should creationism be taught in a science class? no. should intelligent design? yes… however small the difference twixt the two.
creationism needs to be kept with religions. it is defined, basically, as the book of genesis and, to my mind, only applies when discussing christanity..
intelligent design is a budding idea, and ,yes, scientific in nature, which hypothesizes that someone/thing/things have manipulated—in some way, at some time—our journey from the primordial ooze to space. whether they be gods, aliens or our own future selves is a missing piece that some supply according to their own faith base and, i believe, has sparked the controversy that unnecessarily clouds this hypothesis. but it is undeniable that many scientists have wondered, for millennia they have wondered, at the essential coincidence of it all and are seeking to explain it. as many scientists will tell you they believe: there is no such thing as coincidence.
and if you think i implied that the whole of science is lumped in with faith-based belief systems in that previous paragraph, you’re right. i am neither a scientist nor a religionist but i look at it this way: all individual beliefs are centered on information that, for them at least, is considered to be true but in reality has always eluded true comprehension. for those who believe in a higher power worthy of their worship and love, their data is books, songs, and fables. their hypotheses are laws, practices and rituals. their theory is faith. for those who cannot give their faith or love to an intangible god, their scripture is also much that cannot be proved beyond doubt or even understood completely. their commandments are that which they can see, touch or measure. their rituals are to record it all for future generations—much as religions have a guide book, so does science.
to be a scientist requires faith in the natural order of things; there are always surprises yet they do not give up.
to be one of the faithful requires an on-going examination of the most complicated things known to man—the mind, or at least the part of it we refer to as sentience or self awareness…the soul.
furthermore, for all that history has taught us regarding the censure, ridicule and even execution of our free-thinking ancestors (many of whom were later proved to be exactly right or at least on the right track), we certainly haven’t altered our approach to accommodate the evidence. perhaps that is why this issue is such a dilemma…as a whole, we are not a very scientifically minded society; we are so much more geared toward emotion and gut—so hard to remain scientifically curious and open, and still stay deeply rooted by the important traditions and the (mostly)universal and totally essential morality that keeps us from devolving into cave men with the capacity for nuclear war.
what has been done in the name of science and what has been done in the name of religion do not differ much. whether it was the doctors of nazi medicine and their demented experiments or the insane horror of the rwandan massacre; the invention of something as simple as plastic which has improved countless lives, or as simple as a woman like mother theresa who cared for even more.
do not lower a man for his beliefs, do lower a belief for its men.
now that i’m feeling maudlin…on a personal level, i have not ruled out anything. nor have i prepared for anything—i do not own a foil hat or a ray gun. although i could make the hat, the ray gun is completely beyond my capabilities. nor do i go to any church. although i do invoke the lord’s name quite often…especially during sex so perhaps i’m covered in that regard after all. if it is our future selves i must worry about, then i shall have to rent timecop again but i’m pretty sure the good guys won. |
11-01-2005, 02:51 PM
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is not this trim anymore!
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 21,709
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Yes...that's exactly what I meant. 
As for the foil hats, Aqua's making them for all of us.
__________________
Though I am different from you,
We were born involved in one another.
For it was not into my ear you whispered, but into my heart. It was not my lips you kissed, but my soul.
Complete surrender should not just come at moments in which one faces overwhelming odds, but in the calm when it seems one is personally in complete control of one's life.
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11-01-2005, 03:31 PM
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pixie of the wood
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,575
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too samll...i could use two for my nipples i suppose.
i have an edit to my other post: along with the numeropus typos that are obvious there is one that sends the wrong message. i typed do lower a belief for its men but i left out the not... i reapeat...do not!
probably obvious but i had to clarify. |
11-01-2005, 04:33 PM
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Just me.
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: West central Illinois
Posts: 590,002
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wyndhy
Do not lower a man for his beliefs, do lower a belief for its men.
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Wow! That's pretty profound. I like that, Wyndhy.
For myself, I accept evolution as a logical path for creation to have followed,
but, by no means does that exclude intelligent design.
Most of modern thought is based on the "intelligent" application of what has
been learned from the past. I see no reason why a "Supreme Being" could
not have used the same technique for "evolving" life. (Besides, it'd give
his "kids" something to argue about.)
And, if what one really means by "mankind" is the life form that has a soul ...
then life prior to man could very easily have physical similarities but not be
man. So the transformation would be when that "soul" was introduced.
Voila. Evolution ... with creation.
Anyway, that's my thought.
Oh, yeah, and on the question of being taught in school. I like Wyndhy's suggestion for a course on religious concepts presenting the fundamental concepts that provide a basis for the worlds major religions. I think that's a good concept and could help kids to understand how others have chosen to view life.
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11-01-2005, 04:37 PM
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Manwhore
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 15,495
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gekkogecko
WAKE THE FUCK UP YOU MORONIC SHITHEADS!
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That was seriously rude and uncalled for gg.
If you believe me to be a 'moronic shithead' you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but do not make inflammatory statements as such as they do nothing more than piss people off.
__________________
Put me on wheels and I'll turn tricks.
Clever? Nah, I ran out of that years ago. But if you find this, let me know, k?
"The road goes ever on..." ~ Tolkien
In memory of my friend skip...
Go then, there are other worlds than these 
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11-01-2005, 04:57 PM
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Just me.
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: West central Illinois
Posts: 590,002
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I hadn't read gekkogecko's comment, but now that I have, I agree, it was terribly rude and uncalled for.
I think a quote from a scientist of some repute is in order: "After religious teachers accomplish the refining process indicated, they will surely recognize with joy that true religion has been ennobled and made more profound by scientific knowledge." Albert Einstein
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11-01-2005, 05:20 PM
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Pixie since 9/3/2001
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Illinois
Posts: 16,995
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by osuche
Down boys! 
I hoped we could keep this civil, and I was really curious about everyone's answers. Different strokes for different folks.....but we must all, as a country, come to a conclusion about what we want to teach our young ones in public school. I'm sure several other countries battle the same issues.
It's by discussing these kind of ideological conflicts that we move our thinking forward. Or at least I hope.  |
I'm sorry, I though that publics schools had become a baby sitting institution and had very little to do with education.
Today they are manstreaming Learning disabled children and the teacher can only teach to the slowest learning child in the class and every thing that is taught has to be plain vanilla. JMHO
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Growing older is manditory, growing up is optional
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11-01-2005, 05:21 PM
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pixie of the wood
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,575
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dicksbro
Quote:
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do not lower a man for his beliefs, do lower a belief for its men
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Wow! That's pretty profound. I like that, Wyndhy.
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you had to quote my typo. 
 thanks db,  |
11-01-2005, 06:26 PM
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Member Emeritus
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: in a house, on a street, in a city, Milky Way Glxy
Posts: 34
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It depends if it is a science class or a religion class. There is no concrete evidence for ID. ... it should not be discussed in a science class.
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Member Emeritus
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11-01-2005, 06:55 PM
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♦*♥Moderatrix♥*♦
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by osuche
but we must all, as a country, come to a conclusion about what we want to teach our young ones in public school.
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Unless I am mistaken, what to teach, is still decided state by state. |
11-01-2005, 07:10 PM
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Everybody Stretch!
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pa. USA
Posts: 11,637
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Dunno how well this pertains to the topic, but I feel compelled to say this after reading this entire thread. I was going to pull the first person's quote that I read on this subject, but it seems that many of you have the same opinion. Let me throw this out there to see if I get a bite!
I keep reading what should and shouldn't be taught in school. Now...I am not a parent, but I am a product of a very open minded parent who physically showed me the many beliefs of the world, instead of having a virtual stranger (teachers) show me their personal interpretation of the many ways that I could be taught!
Reread that ^^^ and absorb my meaning. I'll wait...
*hears the Jeopardy song playing in the background*
Back in my day (oh gawdddddddd...did I say that?) some teachers inflicted their personal beliefs and interpretations into their lessons. It probably still happens today. Recognizing this, my mother gave me (us...all her children) an opportunity that most children don't get from their parents...and I feel as though ALL parents could learn a lesson from my mother. I know some of you had heard me say this before, but I'll say it again here for those who may have not.
We went church hopping when I was a child. And, I don't mean from one Methodist church (I was raised as a Methodist) to another. I mean from one denomination to another...and everything in-between! I've visited Pentecostal "holy rollers" one week and a Rabbi the next. I've been to High Mass and heard scientists speak on evolution all in the same weekend. My mother wouldn't pick and choose what she'd show me...she showed me it all and she told me her views and gave me the respect to decypher all the knowledge I was absorbing and decide for myself. She told me that fear is at the root of a closed minded person. It's more comfortable to "know" one way and one way only. She said interpretation is just that...interpretation. If I read the King James version of the bible and assume I understand it, then that is my interpretation of the parables written by many a man "for God". If I read the King James version of the Bible and live it word for word...than I did not understand it at all...because the King James version of the Bible is an interpretation/conversion as best it could be related to the English language, and if told from one language to another it will surely change from man to man. BTW...in the Methodist church, the King James version of the Bible is the only Bible I ever knew till I started "church hopping".
All in all...what she was telling me is that I am the only one who can decide what I believe. If I know the choices and understand and respect that everyone else has a rightful claim to their own belief, I will be a good person! If I know good from bad...if I understand that what I do and say will show on my life's record...if I respect others and still take my own stand when a stand needs to be taken, I will be a good person. If I help when help is needed...if I do my best, even if my best isn't THE BEST...if I challenge "it" when I know I have a platform, and admit it when I know I am wrong...if I turn the other cheek when the fire is too hot for reasonable discussion (<---working on that!)...and if I can look back on my day and know I've learned something or made a difference, no matter how big or small...than I know who I am and I can rest assured that no matter how I got here...I AM WORTHY!
She also added..."If the world could do this for their children, the world would be a better place. Not because I said so...just because it is so!"
Don't get me wrong! I have flaws...major flaws...I know that I do! But, I am a better person than I might have been in just trying to interpret what my mother was trying to show me. She showed me the world from our tiny little neighborhood!
Mommy! (all 4 of us...and my brother, till he died...still call her Mommy...23 years after her death.)
THE END!
Carry On!
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Minds are like parachutes. They only work when they are open.
~Thomas Dewar~
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11-01-2005, 07:16 PM
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Pixie's Resident Reptile
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Central MD, USA
Posts: 21,084
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aqua
That was seriously rude and uncalled for gg.
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Rude? Yes! But: No, I repeat NO, more rude & offensive than the bullshit of "Intelligent Design" beign pushed on the rest of us by christain fundamentalists.
Uncalled for? Entirely called for.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aqua
If you believe me to be a 'moronic shithead' you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but do not make inflammatory statements as such as they do nothing more than piss people off.
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When the christain fundamentalistts stop it, I will as well. And as far as this being aimed at you personally: perhaps. I honestly don't know if you are one of the christain fundamentalists who dump this SHIT on people, but if you actualy are, then yes, it was aimed at you. Personally.
I repeat, if you, speaking for the christain fundamentalists (and yes, I recognize that you may indeed be speaking for them, and this may have nothing with your personal relitgious beliefs), do expect me to be polite and non-inflammatory about this, then it is incumbant upon them/you from doing the same IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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On the kinkometer, my kink measures as a sine wave.
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11-01-2005, 07:20 PM
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♦*♥Moderatrix♥*♦
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Join Date: Nov 2001
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GG~ Regardless of your personal beliefs, this is a no flame forum. Be respectful in expressing your views.
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11-01-2005, 07:24 PM
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Pixie's Resident Reptile
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Central MD, USA
Posts: 21,084
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wyndhy
should creationism be taught in a science class? no. should intelligent design? yes… however small the difference twixt the two.
(snip)
intelligent design is a budding idea, and ,yes, scientific in nature
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The 'small difference twixt' creationism & intelligent design is nothing but window dressing. Despite the claim, there is nothing scientific about the idea of intelligent design being the explanation for the origin of the universe.
Yeah, if you want to teach intelligent design and/or creationism, then go ahead...in a class on comparative religions, not in a science class. And yes, it's a great idea to teach this in an explanatory and factual manner as possible. "This" is what some people believe, "This other" is what other people believe, "and this over here is what still others believe", etc.
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On the kinkometer, my kink measures as a sine wave.
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11-01-2005, 07:40 PM
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pixie of the wood
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,575
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Quote:
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The 'small difference twixt' creationism & intelligent deesign is nothing but window dressing.....
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only if you consider window dressing as the introduction of new possibilities that reflect our current understanding of the universe. if intelligent design was actually proved into law, or at the very least enough to be theory, and the “intelligent interference" turned out to be something tangible, such as another sentient species or some bizarre loophole in our fundamental laws of physics, then it would instantly, by the very definition of science, be forever and irrevocably be linked to some sort of science. hell, it would probably get its own –ology. |
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