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  #1  
Old 08-01-2004, 04:46 PM
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sixsense sixsense is offline
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Open Marriages

Recently at another forum we got into a discussion about open marriages and how possible it might reaffirm a marriage. Reaffirm because our basic humn instinct for both sexes for copulation and curiosity could be fullfilled leaving less questions of what if. Supposedly allowing a fuller meaningful mental/emotional portion of the marriage.

The only real argument given was that many people could not handle the jealousy, which was argued back that shows a possiveness on the jealous persons part. As if the SO is a object they own. Which goes back to a patriarchy ideal that at least many of us in that board were trying not to fall for.

Soo.. Im wondering if any of the couples here have a open marriage, and how has it worked out? Helped? Hindered? Ever worries about STDs from one another? Have you actually been afraid your SO (or yourself) falling mentally for the outside partner(s)?

At the other end, do you think some couples are only meant for one another. Since we humans have choice and dont have a real instinct driving us here. We can choose to be like wolves that mate for life.

(I hope this was the right area since it is dealing with sex in this section)
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  #2  
Old 08-01-2004, 05:11 PM
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Monogamy is not a repressive institution based upon patriarchal oppression (ask any barrister). If we had patriarchal oppression, we would have harems.

Open marriage is an oxymoron - like military intelligence or TV personality.

If you need to fuck whoever takes your fancy or to discover who you are - you are too immature to get married or marraige is not for you, which is fair enough but not for your partner maybe, otherwise you are being selfish which is more likely the reality.

I just object to wrapping this up in some excuse because you have exhausted the sexual possibilities of one partner even though they remain your best bet in the wider unit field.

Just be honest about it. I need to explore more, but keep an eye to the consequences. Put a little more effort in, you may be surprised.

GGGRRRRR

Scary Vigil.
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  #3  
Old 08-01-2004, 05:51 PM
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My wanting to have an open relationship has nothing to do with needing to discover myself, nor have I exhausted the sexual possibilities with Mr. Lil (well maybe for today but tomorrow is another day). Just because something is not your cup of tea, I would still ask you be respectful to those of us who see the coin from a different side.

I know who I am and yearn to share aspects of myself with others who I have come to care for deeply in my life. I find my need for an open marriage to be different from many. I do not seek an open marriage for a more free love lifestyle but because I have already established relationships that have in no way detracted from my marriage and I yearn to express myself sexually in those relationships. Mr. Lil, being the extraordinary man that he is, is secure enough to realize that there is no other relationship to rival what he and I have. We are in the process of sincerely weighing out what influence multiple partners would have on our lives. He has expressed that he feels glad that I am not seeking a lifestyle where I/he would sleep with people randomly but that instead it would simply be an option if either of us were ever in a situation where it was what we felt was right.

For me marriage does not mean we have agreed to forego any other close intimate relationships, only that we have chosen to make ours the primary one in both of our lives.
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  #4  
Old 08-01-2004, 06:59 PM
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Wicked Wanda Wicked Wanda is offline
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**Wanda Kitty unsheaths her very sharp claws**
Vigil, you are so wrong in so many ways!
Starting with the "Patriarchal oppression" you deny exists in the West.
By the way, go back and re-read what sixsense wrote. The words "patriarchal oppression" DO NOT APPEAR!!!! ***ANYWHERE***in the post!
Sixsense did mention "patriarchal ideal" which is not the same thing, sweetie pie.
I am bothered by your translation of "ideal" into "oppression". A nastier woman than myself might suggest that your slip is showing. (Freud was a silly man anyway. I mean, all women have "penis envy"??... HAH! But never mind)
I wonder if you asked your SO (wife or girlfriend) if she thinks this is a patriarchal society?
You should. I do not know your SO, but she likely might tell you that the West, as big an improvement as it is over the rest of the world, is not an equal opportunity place for women, even in the 21st century.
The "patriarchal ideal" sixsense mentioned traditionally refers to the confidence a man has in believing HE is the sire of any offspring, and the other "rights" a man has over a woman in the marriage. The "fatherhood" issue is a big one. In the animal kingdom dominant males will kill and eat the male offspring of other males.
This is important to human males too. Look at the laws on heirs and property, for example, and the "right" a man seems to have in many places in the USA to KILL his wife if he finds her with another man!
Men are still being given the "benefit of the doubt" on this in too many places. Women are not granted this doubt in similar circumstances...
I think that murder over sexual fidelity is stupid, cruel and pointless, but I feel like a voice in the wilderness. And we will not speak of the practices OUTSIDE the West, which are totally barbaric, including female circumcision, and "honor" murders!!
The patriarchal issues extend into joint ownership of property, management of money, and even joint credit ratings. ("Have your husband come down to co-sign if you want to borrow money, Mrs. Smith)"
Women keeping their own surnames is stil a bit of a scandal in some circles, and I prefer Ms. to Mrs., as I am not ANYBODY'S property, even when I was married. (yes I was, and I am coming to that too, later on)
Yes, things have improved a lot recently, but there are still problems. Louisiana, my home state, bases its' laws on the Napoleanic Code for God's sake!
NEXT:
Laws AGAINST the right to birth control for women.
I am not talking about abortion. Just birth control. You know, condoms, diaphrams, the Pill. Margaret Sanger, (my personal idol, after my Parents) went to prison for teaching women how NOT to get pregnant in 1917 at a time when the death rate for women in childbirth was horrendous.
Canda didn't legalize contraception 1969. The USA made legal the sale of birth control devices to single people IN FUCKING 1972!!!!!!
Next:
I am a young woman. When my Grandmama was born, (1940) in France, she could not vote, run for office, or join a political party. France did not "grant" the right to vote to women until 1944. The USA did it earlier, in 1920.
The USA still has not found its' way to elect a woman President, or even a Vice President.
The first woman elected to a Govenorship on her own merit, and not as a substitute for her spouse was Ella Grasso, in 1974.
Women Senators are fairly new too, by the way. Since 1920, when we got the vote, 33 have served, and 23 of those have been elected since 1972.

So much for the "patriarchal ideal" as a "myth." Maybe "oppression" is closer to reality!

Out of room. Next post I get really catty.

MS. Wicked Wanda
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Last edited by Wicked Wanda : 08-01-2004 at 07:38 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-01-2004, 07:24 PM
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Cassiopeia Cassiopeia is offline
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Wicked Wanda: Here is an interesting article to read about patriarchal ideals. patriarchal ideal It seems like it does refer to monogamous marriages. I think that perhaps Vigil slipped in the word "oppression" because the patriarchal ideal is often associated with female oppression.

sixsense: I personally think that it seems too idealistic for *most* couples. However, I commend those that have made their open marriage successful...I don't think I could do it.
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  #6  
Old 08-01-2004, 07:26 PM
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Wicked Wanda Wicked Wanda is offline
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part 2. Wanda resumes working the scratching post

Maturity? Selfishness?
HAH!
How dare you to presume to know my level of maturity, or if I am selfish?
If selfish means I want to be in charge of my self, my life, and my body, then yes, because...
I fuck whomever I want WHEN I want. I control my body, and my appetites.
I am not an animal, driven mindlessly to copulate, and to reproduce.
As a bisexual, primarily lesbian woman, I am not too likely to have a child.
I just happen to enjoy sex tremendously. I like having a variety of partners and sexual experiences. I fuck a lot!!!!
I do not desire to have to gain PERMISSION to do so.
(Lil, I wrote the first post before you posted your reply, I just am a slow typist.)
Lil is in a loving, NEGOTIATED arrangement.
So am I.
My arrangement is I am careful about disease, pregnancy, my own personal safety, and the safety of my home and loved ones.
And I fuck whomever I please.
I use "fuck" to cover any sexual encounter, as I sleep with other women more than I sleep with men. "Fuck" just seems to cover it all so well.
I was married, and in a "monogamous" relationship.
At least I though so.
Hubby, the dear rat bastard I have spoken of before, gave me an unplanned pregnancy, chlamydia, and gonnorhea.
If I had not suffered a "spontaneous AB" (a miscarriage to those of you not in medicine) I might have tried to stay married, to provide for my child.
THAT IS THE BEST REASON FOR MARRIAGE!!!!
The government also tries to makes it almost impossible to share your life with someone else without marriage.
Insurance, Social Security, visiting in the hospital, signing papers when the other person is sick, all these things are so frustrating without marriage, that stupid little piece of paper.
YES!!!
I AM PRO SAME -SEX MARRIAGE!!! -for this reason, and to protect any children involved...
But to enforce monagamy????
Please don't forget it was still illegal in several states to have sex with anyone other than your spouse until VERY recently. This was enforced very selectively.
Open marriage is about respect.
Respect for each other, for yourselves, and for any others involved.
That seems much more mature than enforced, unwanted monogamy.

Bitch Dyke Kitty Wanda is too tired to claw and rant anymore.

WW
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  #7  
Old 08-01-2004, 08:07 PM
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Wicked Wanda Wicked Wanda is offline
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part 3: Not that tired

HUGS Hi Cassie.
I read that link, and it is scary, but probably about right for 1933.
It supports the idea of the patriarchal society as an oppressive one for women.
But that seems to follow the definition, doesn't it?

I didn't answer any of sweet sixsense' questions though, did I?
Ok.
Jealousy.
I ALWAYS, ALWAYS come home. My loves know this, and it is a big part of the ease with which we have adopted this lifestyle. I never surprise my loves, I never keep dates from them, they always know where I am, and who I am with. (for safety- mine and theirs) I follow the AGREED ON RULES, about internet dating (never again) disease prevention, pregnancy avoidance, cell phone availabilty, emergency money, and to follow my instincts about people I meet face to face, which are very, very good.
I never leave my drink untended, and always watch the bartender make mine.
(Yes, it DOES sound like "Teen Girls' guide to dating" but it is also pretty much common sense stuff)
And I NEVER EVER, even when I am furious at my loves, make stupid comparison comments like "well she never treats me like that" refering to another sexual partner, or compare sexual techniques, or that "for a man he was pretty awsome" or "that was the best sex I ever had" kind of stuff.
Part of my obligation to my loves is to make her and him feel special, wanted, sexual, desirable, talented, even superior to those around them, all tempered with common sense. I am very lucky in that they are all these things anyway. Makes my obligation very light. Honest!!!
My belief in them and my love, respect, and admiration for them is what makes these things so easy to do.
And most importantly their respect, faith and love for me makes it possible for us to do this.
(Part 2, yes, they have open parts to their sexual lives as well, but very little, and the same rules apply.)

I am sure I have really confused everyone by now, but that's life.
Get over it.

Sexually polymorphicaly and polyamorously perverse,

WW
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Last edited by Wicked Wanda : 08-01-2004 at 08:39 PM.
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  #8  
Old 08-01-2004, 08:28 PM
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Wicked Wanda..... You go girl!!!!!!!!! I love your style!
I think you just became my mentor.
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  #9  
Old 08-02-2004, 12:41 AM
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open or not open...marriage doesn't mean the same thing to eveyone. Conservatives would like it clearly defined as X, Y, and Z.

But what ever is the meaning of marriage I think I am on safe grounds that for the majority, it means a special bond that is unique to two people...m/m, m/f, or f/f. And it is those two people who define what that bond is for them. So it would be ok to have an open marriage for some and while for others it is not.

Neither member of the relationship in my view should force or perswade the other either way--it should be something that both should agree on
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Old 08-02-2004, 01:32 AM
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OK.

My understanding of the difference between repression and oppression is that the former tries to stop something happening through the pressure of morality and the latter through a legal structure. Historically both have happened. Actually in the UK now there is a movement against the financial oppression that divorced fathers face. I am no more going to go on a guilt trip about historical oppression and repression of women than I am for the slave trade. I learn about these things in History with a view to their hopefully never happening again and certainly not with my support.

My personal opinion on marriage is that many people suffer from getting married too soon. They neither understand themselves nor the personal responsibility that goes with the committment. If you are lucky you can get to know yourself within the marriage.

Please do not think that my personal opinion and experience is a direct criticism of your lifestyle. If your own experience of marriage was an unmitigated disaster because you chose the wrong person at the wrong time and at a time when you hadn't realised that it just wasn't for you, fair enough, but your experience is still one experience as mine is.

I was probably more immature than my wife when we married, but we had both pretty much explored our sexuality enough to know that we were compatible. I have since learned the responsibility of fatherhood and the type of family environment that I see my kids wanting.

If you are fortunate enough to have satisfied these obligations within your marriage and the kids are secure, then I totally respect a decision that you can begin to put yourself first again. What I don't like is people (men and women) who put themselves first before they have fulfilled the obligations that they made when committing to a marriage, unless of course both parties went into the committment with the shared objective of having an open relationship.

For me marriage as contracted by the state is a specific relationship. People are free to make any number of lifestyle choices about how they live their lives and with whom, but perhaps we should find some different terms to describe these relationships then we wouldn't spit at each other so much.
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  #11  
Old 08-02-2004, 01:58 AM
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Well...isn't it interesting how almost all discussions here evolve into history lessons lately...

Actually, the only reason I wandered into this thread, & stuck around long enough to catch the sound & fury, was to say that my only experience with an "open" marriage was a couple I knew many years ago that didn't work out in the long term...but I think it failed because it wasn't truly open, it was just his excuse to try to screw any woman he desired, including a clumsy attempt at my own wife...& it wasn't my objection that stopped him, his "little woman" dragged him away to chew his ass out as he was, I think, about to ask me if I was "cool" with it. Just for the record, I would have told him it was up to her (my wife)...I trust her to do what she knows is right...hey, maybe I'm the one with a truly open marriage? Nahhhh, she'd cut my balls off if she caught me
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2004, 06:39 AM
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Sorry Vigil,

I have to disagree with you too hun.

While I have never been involved in an open relationship, it is something I would not (and have not) rule out in the future.

I can see a lot of benefits to the relationship in this kind of relationship, however my immaturity and insecurities about myself as a person are what stops me.

I believe I have an excellent relationship with Fussy and at this point in time do not feel the need or desire for sex with others but at the same time there are sexual experiences which I know I'd like to try before I die (threesomes etc). What has preventing me from taking that step so far is that I am not emotionally or mentally prepared to live with all the possible consequences. I am too afraid that my own insecurities and petty jealousies may drive a wedge between Fussy and I and am not prepared to let that happen.

However, when Fussy and I have reached a level of maturity and our relationship itself has reached a level of maturity which we feel would allow us to deal with the possible complications of an open relationship, then that is when we may decide to embark on one.

On a related note, I've never understood why the 'sex isn't the be all and end all' crowd, also tend to argue that open relationships are wrong. If sex isn't that important to a marriage, why on earth should it matter who we do it with? And why should we risk our relationships by lying to our partners in order to get sex outside of marriage as so many people do? Personally I think that sex is implicitly important to a marriage and each couple needs to ensure that their needs and desires are met in a permissive and encouraging manner.....if this means going outside of the marriage with the other's full consent and approval then so be it....if not, then fine, no one's suggesting that it becomes compulsory!
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2004, 06:55 AM
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Sharni Sharni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Wanda
Insurance, Social Security, visiting in the hospital, signing papers when the other person is sick, all these things are so frustrating without marriage, that stupid little piece of paper.

De facto is a accepted thing in Oz....Bilbo and I arent married...but in the eyes of the law we are
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Old 08-02-2004, 07:24 AM
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Thumbs up

This is,very,simple,for my wife & I.We live in,what some may call,a fantasy
world.We have BOTH always believed that,somewhere in the world,is the only
mate for you.That you are DESTINED to be together.It may be a FANTASY
world,but we have had,a completely,unboring marriage for 39yrs.We don't
care what other people believe,but it has worked for us.It's called "Live &
let live"! Irish
P.S.Our marriage vows said-For better or worse-& that's what we have had!
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Old 08-02-2004, 08:17 AM
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I would not be able to do it.

That IS my husband. I AM his wife. That's our agreement. Absolutely we "belong" to each other. Not just me to him, not just him to me. Us, to each other. That is MY love. My lover. My friend. As I am his love, lover, friend.

When I have sex with him, it is a profound expression of my feelings for him. Special feelings. A special commitment. A special choice to do whatever work it takes to remain in that special relationship with just him. A statement that I recieve that physical pleasure from him, and him alone. I see sex as a symbolic statement within a partnership. It goes beyond physical grunting.

I am also of the opinion that if our relationship is not special, and we each feel the need to express that level of commitment to other people, then we should not be married. Expressing commitment to many people sort of destroys the ideas of integrity, faithfulness, commitment, and the many other feelings and actions I associate with a powerful, central, integral relationship such as a marriage.

I don't mind other people doing as they wish. However, what I do dislike and what angers me is people who have in the past started a "relationship" with me while they were married. In each relationship I am in, the question is always there, "Is this The One?" Someone already being married and having no intention or desire ever to have anything more with me than sex degrades the act of sex, it diminishes the statement of sex, relegating it to two people grunting and getting physical satisfaction then walking away from each other. The profound spirititual and emotional connection is meaningless to them.

When I have sex with someone, my feelings towards them absolutely change. This is why I don't run around casually spreading my legs. Because as an individual, I cannot handle it. It is too meaningful to me, matters too much to me.
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