I remember that movie.


( I saw Edger’s lips move. )

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I only wish they were Jenny's lips we saw moving.

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Though I am different from you,
We were born involved in one another.

For it was not into my ear you whispered, but into my heart. It was not my lips you kissed, but my soul.

Complete surrender should not just come at moments in which one faces overwhelming odds, but in the calm when it seems one is personally in complete control of one's life.

There is a lot of sense in what you say, Calihotguy.

And WI, I am in no way suggesting that an atheist world would be perfect. I quite simply believe that we would be rid of religious hatred, which is a single step forward. We would then be able to concentrate on race, sexuality and economics, which are probably bigger issues.



That's right. The problem with religion is that each thinks they are right, but that not all can be, hence the Islam vs fundamentalist Christian "debate". How can there be respect if each thinks they are "the one true way"? There is a lot more likelihood of common ground with non-religious issues.

But, is there any real common ground between a democratic state, like the US, a communist state, like China, a dictator held state, like any number of African countries? Each one of those feel like they are right, but not any one of those governments is right. They all have problems, because you have a higher class of people and a lower class of people. There is no middle class, because those of us, myself included, who do not have the means to buy the world, are paying for those who can buy the world. No matter which type of government you live in, and isn't that the real reason why we have conflicts so the rich can get richer. It happened in Vietnam and it is happening now in Iraq.

Those who have power (or guns), are always looking for more power and money. Look at Germany before and during World War ll. Whomever is in power always wants more then he can have.

So, basically, what I am trying to say is religion is not the root cause of an uprising, or unrest, but the people who are supposed to be levelheaded and keep our countries out of these squirmishes. The actions of a country come from those who think they are doing what the people they represent want them to do. I, myself, didn't ask my leaders to invade Iraq, but to get bin Laden, and put him on trial for his actions of 9-11.

Hopefully my ramblings made some sort of sense.

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Rise up, gather 'round, rock this place to the ground......Def Leppard
What's this life for......Creed

BruceandNan,

I would suggest that ideas, or ideals, rather than greed or guns motivate conflict. The young men and women who have lately served as suicide bombers were persuaded to act, not bribed or coerced.

Conflicts between ideas, such as exist between liberal, secular democracies and autocratic theocracies, can be very difficult to manage – and then only after the other is understood. The West has only lately given substantial consideration to the Arab Middle East; for the prior four decades, their efforts were correctly focused on containing the Soviet Union.

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Eudaimonia

It is not greed and guns nor ideas and ideals, but the plain and simple truth is Power creates power, the true leaders of the world, be they political or religious, want more power over others. Everything else is a way to a means.

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I don't know if "True Leaders" want power. There are plenty of people who are leaders in spite of themselves - that is actually the premise of Moses...or even Jesus about not wanting to die on the cross. There are probably some parallels there to Islam. And as a result these people become leaders out of neccessity rather than desire. I would suspect that this is true across businesses and civil life. Perhaps MLK became a leader because "some one had to do it". Rosa Parks is another example. Anyway, you have the general idea.

That being said, I think that there are plenty of leaders who want power selfishly. And to by the same token it does not matter what venue they choose. The Church or Religion in highly religious areas, or Military or Civil in other areas. And in that respect, Power itself is the aphrodiasic. The bad part here is that these type of leaders also consider their role as for "the good of all", when it is for the good of a few.

I can only refer you to my second paragraph above.



Religion is not the root cause of all uprisings or unrest, but it would be naive to suggest that it has had no part (or been the cause) in many. Again, I can only say that removing religion is only removing one element of conflict, not sorting all of society's problems. Worthwhile, IMHO, but not a cure-all.

I would add that politics tends to be more pragmatic than religion. Compromises are made for financial, practical, necessary, and (above all) electoral reasons. Religion is a little more hardline

I would agree. I could, of course, suggest a likely source for these ideas

I'm not saying that religion isn't a cause, but is a thread, just like different types of governments and also those who lead, whether left or right wing or straight down the middle.

Back to the point at hand, will we ever know what started the jihad movement, probably not, because no one is alive who was actually around when the jihad started way back in the 1700-1800's. The only thing we know is that everything that has happened lately just adds fuel to the fire. As an example, the unrest in Northern Ireland. Every time the English brought down a safe house or someone in the hieracrchy (sp), the IRA would retaliate. The same applies to present day day Iraq and the whole Middle East.

We may never know how or why this jihad started. I know that the Barbery (sp) Wars were and still are a part of it.

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Rise up, gather 'round, rock this place to the ground......Def Leppard
What's this life for......Creed

mabelode,

True, but that accounts for only a fraction of idea driven conflict. The American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Russian, and Chinese Revolutions are more easily described as being driven by ideals than by religious zeal. It seems that much of the 20th century was spent examining the differences between Capitalism and Communism. Sometimes the contrasts involved violence, and sometimes not.

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Eudaimonia

A friend of mine just sent me this URL and it a very interesting discussion/debate between an lady and an Islamic cleric. Turn the sound down (it's subtitled) as that can be distracting.

It is interesting.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20...1050wmv&ak=null

She had some very interesting points to make.

Unfortunately, the cleric did not have much opportunity to speak, and was clearly not the best person to put across the point of view of the Muslim people. I can't help thinking that a discussion with a female Muslim academic would have created a fairer playing field and may have made the debate a little less one sided.

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"Time flies like an arrow -
Fruit flies like a banana"

M Y - N A U G H T Y - P I C T U R E S ! !

Bring from Sweden we usaly seem to have a rather laid back opinion on religon we dont have alot of fanatics like Pat in the US and alot of peopel i know look at these peopel whit a slight chuckel as if it was a joke, or shake their head woundering when the guy from candid camra will walk out.

This is a tendensy that is pretty simpel, we all 'know' cristianity even if we dont belive in jesus or god in waht ever shape or facion we all know the line "turn the other check" and we all see it as cristian benevolence and we have hard to understand how Islamic as a religon look so Hatefull towards us...

But the explenation is pretty simpel... one word, Interpretation... did i spell that right?

Any way, a person like Bin Laden reads the Coran like Pat Robertson read the Bibel he finds what he NEED and he use it...

You can justefy anything you want by reading the Bible Or the Koran it's taht simpel... now, that dont make either of them invalid only that one need to take in to acount that these where written LONG ago, by peopel wrighting a messige that reflected their time, when it's being read there are things that as a human of sound mind there are things that we have to look at and say... this dont go whit the the developed sence of morality and etics that we have today, and some things simply make no sence in modern day.

If you belive that the cristian messige is love and understanding, and peacefull coexsitance whit your fellow man, that messige can be found in the Bible...

If you belive in the bigot View of homofobes and rasists who belive in the purety of the blood and the right of a few over the masses and your right to assert your ideas in a way that end in murder and massaker, you can find that to...

The same have to be in the Koran, this is why Bin Laden can justefy what he is doing...

Sadly...

Cristianity have been just as bad as islam, we just tend to disregard it, i belive everyone know about Rowanda? but do you know that the massecers was orcesrated by peopel using the Cristian messige? these groups where backed by many of the cristian comuneties in Europe and USA (i'm not saying they backed the massaker but they game them founding for many years leading up to the massacer and where the peopel who when we started seeing how wrong things was going in that country that argued that everything was fine... as we know it today it was not...

Religon is not bad, peopels bad interpretations of a religon is...

I have friends who belive, both cristian and islamic... who's view and council and respec, and know peopel both cristian and islamic who's view have almost ended me in jail, a Muslim for coments on 911 and a Cristian on coments about a Lesbian freind of mine...

This all boil down to Hate... and Interpretations...

Bin Laden Hates USA, He hates the western world... as do many peopel in the Arab Countires... it ahve noting to do whit religon when you get it down to the basic...

And i will stop my preatching... and my horrid spelling

Admiral

Admiral, well said, and thank-you so much for your input.

I love to hear from other nationalities on the board here...it makes me cringe when people post on this site using 'we' to mean the one particular country they happen to come from.

It makes us seem so unfriendly to others, I always think.

I hope you continue to post often, as I often think this site needs a more truly international feel.

__________________
"Time flies like an arrow -
Fruit flies like a banana"

M Y - N A U G H T Y - P I C T U R E S ! !