[homer]Mmmmmmm, chubby[/homer] ;)

Looks like you've got a chubby rith there, Aqua. ;)

Segregating ourselves with a label just has us enforcing the same fascist beauty standards we've always fought against on ourselves, and I'm not sure I'm willing to be complicit in my own deroga

Sorry, meant to ask what are fascist beauty standards?

Not sure what is meant by this...

Late to the party, I know, but it's never stopped me having an opinion.

I've had quiet, internal cringefests when friends have proudly adopted the BBW moniker. They're friends, I love them, I'll support them if this is how they want to fit into the world around them. I understand that it's empowering in a way, because all too often...the words big (chubby, large, fat, curvy, insert rounded choice) and beautiful are antithetical in our society. Pairing them is an act of rebellion, of affirmation, of taking back the word beautiful from those who beat women over the head with it. It's the equivalent of the movements in the gay community to take back the words used to negate them. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, there are lots of examples of intentional adoption of labels.

And I get that. Really I do. But I feel that society already makes women WAY too obsessive about their dress size...and I'd rather my friends think of themselves as beautiful women, rather than continue to make their identity a relative term. Big? Compared to who? Compared to what? I'd have preferred Cuvaceous Cuties. Or even Busty Babes. But here's the thing...it's not my call. And that's really the least of my objections.

Since first seeing this thread yesterday, though, you folks have changed my mind about one of my objections to the label. I hadn't realized how much until I tried to set out the argument here. At one point, part of my problem was that I thought BBW fetishized large women. I still think it does, I'm starting to wonder how big a problem that is. God knows, we've all got twists...THAT'S certainly not the problem. I was worried that it was seen as a warning label or an appology, as well as a search critera. But I don't think it is any more, I take Liliths point that it's a "love it or leave it" label. I'm still disappointed it's necessary....people have no excuse to be nasty to each other...we all have feelings, and they can all get hurt. I suppose some part of me feels the need for the "get over it" part of the old gay pride marching anthem...but I guess that's happening too, just in different ways?

So here's my 2cents (finally ;) )....maybe, so long as the BBW moniker is of use and benefit to those who want it...it should stay. But I can still quietly look forward to the day when everyone realizes that size is an irrelevance, and that beauty is just the radiance of the soul.

Thanks, GingerV, for your very thoughtful response. I agree with you--it's that cringefest that got me started on this thread.

As for "fascist beauty standards," SuzyQ, those are the ones that indicate you must be ultra thin, yet with big boobs (and since this happens all too rarely in nature, you're gonna have to buy those boobs). "Fascist beauty standards" are those that say if you don't look like the girls in the magazine, or porn, you're right out. And it applies to our thin sisters as well--if they're too skinny, lacking the requisite amount of T and A, well, then, I'm sorry, they don't measure up either. FBSs are those we've internalized and make women cringe when we read magazines, or freak out when our SOs look at porn, because we know we don't look like that, and despite intellectually knowing better, we still worry that he wants her, not us.

My issue with all of this is less with the label itself and more with what I see as the bigger issue, which is a culture that works against people being "comfortable in their own skin" (I love that thought, can't remember where I heard it first). A lot of people have problems with their body image, particularly women, and it saddens me when a woman cannot truly be herself because she believes she has "too much of this" or "not enough of that." I know I've loved women who have told me that they can't understand why anyone would be attracted to them, one actually told me that anyone who found her attractive must have something wrong with them (thanks for telling me a couple of years into our relationship - it didn't last long after that). I think my issue is with anything that contribute to holding someone back from being themselves in the most fulfilling way possible.

Amen, Thrushbeard. Preach on, brother. And my chatting with men at Pixies indicates that the culture of body hate is not limited to women, either.

I have spent the evening going through my most recent photoshoot, and I'm just thrilled with the results. There was a time in my life when every picture on the roll ended up in the garbage, and to be at a point in my life where I've finally stopped arguing with my hubby when he tells me I'm beautiful as-is is the best feeling ever. Hell of a lot of hard work, let me tell you, but well worth it. I'm sorry your former lover felt that way, and I'm even sorrier that it's such a common theme for women and men everywhere. I know the problem is bigger than the label, but maybe we can start there, and move on to the more insidious ones one by one. Goddess knows, if we could just get women to see and believe in their own beauty, there would be a cosmic revolution. Of that I have no doubt. If that happened, labels, institutions, and walls would fall like Jericho.

I think you've hit on an interesting point here.

The thing I dislike about the BBW label is the underlying attitude which seems to go with it.

In fact I feel there are two possible attitudes which come across when a woman labels hereself as a BBW:

1) The 'I'm big but I'm beautiful - honest!' kind of attitude, which is very unconvincing. I think there are some women who wear the BBW label because they're trying to convince themselves that they are beautiful, because in reality they don't feel that they are.

2) The 'I'm big and I don't give a shit' attitude which comes across as brash and arrogant (not attractive traits in anyone). There are larger women in the world, who seem to use the label as a passcard to allow themselves to behave badly, be rude and obnoxious etc.

For me, the danger of the BBW label is that women who give themselves this title are at risk of being categorised as having one attitude or the other and in my opinion neither of these attitudes are positive or healthy.

I find that its weird as hell to have to justify your beauty with a label anyway. Historically and in alot of cultures the bigger the woman the more beautiful she is. But ever since Twiggy, a person who definately needs a ham sandwich, thin has been in.

I totally agree with you, Loulabelle. The attitude you describe, particularly #1, is what I have felt with the whole thing, but could not put into words. You've articulated it beautifully--thank you. I think #2 is just an extroverted version of #1--bravado masking insecurity. I'll tell you I'm fat before you have a chance. Preemptive strike, as it were. I've done it myself.