We don't need no freakin' scientists or engineers
 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/...EWS01/106050333





Good to hear states/districts are not just raping the budgets for the kids with handicaps :whack: :argue: :withstupi :trout: :tear: :confused:

Gotta pay for those tax breaks for the super rich somehow.

Not to worry. We don't need smartasses from this less than 5% of the world. The planet will become a homogenized mass where more than 99% of the over population will serve the wants of the isolated, insulated, few with P$O$W$E$R. You are only sower grapes because you and your children and their children will not be among of them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...8030702846.html

here, not only are we cutting the school budget by hundreds of millions, we are increasing the prison, et al budget.

now...follow me here...since the structure, nuance and nature of these budget cuts end up hurting city districts most (read: high per capita crime), there will be less money for after school programs. less productive stuff to do equals more crime. more crime needs more money in the budget to fight and punish. if this trend continues, in a generation's time, a city may very well be spending many times more than the initial school budget cuts per year to house and deter all the petty criminals for whom a lack of even a little good influence was tantamount to enabling.

Thirty eight years later Soylent Green seems just a little less fiction, eh? :wink:

Ohhhhh well Florida has the answer to the prison issue. We just fire all the state employees and privatize the prisons. Most are faith based so God will save us. Right? Right?

While intuitively appealing, that cause and effect is unsupported by the data.

Irony, you gotta love irony. I find humor in the fact that the school budget cuts generally hit the gifted or the extremely needy first. So long as you're a C student and willing to trudge along with everyone else you just end up in a bigger class.

Wyndhy, I do agree with your assessment on the worsening school systems and the increase in petty crimes. However, I would also like to point out that the prisons wouldn't be over crowded if certain things weren't illegal (I will be more than happy to have a discussion on this at a later date), and also if prisoners weren't allowed an infinite number of appeals. I am also a big supporter of the death penalty which would also cut down on number of living inmates.

Make room, make room.

Harry Harrison

The Master.

... and past SFWA Grand Master.

Thank god for the Stainless Steel Rat.

Not to worry. As soon as any political entity finds a way for it to become a revenue stream for them it will no longer be illegal. :cool:

There are several political candidate/running man jokes there.

There is a way for it to generate revenue. Due the same thing as tobacco. The hard part is regulating the farming. It's a lot easier to grow than tobacco.

Theory says that theory and practice produce the same results; practice says otherwise.

liked that article, jseal but missed the part where it did or did not find links between crime and school budgets

wyndhy,

It does not need to do so.

As crime rates are dropping, per the statistics referenced in the linked article, your conjecture, “there will be less money for after school programs. less productive stuff to do equals more crime,” which asserts that less money spent on after school programs results in more crime, is without substantiation.

As you made the claim, it is incumbent upon you to warrant the claim with supporting data. I did not say you were wrong, I said that the data does not support your conjecture. The notion may be appealing, it may be persuasive, but many appealing, persuasive ideas are ultimately shown to be unsubstantiated. Unless there is reason to believe that spending that money for that purpose is justified, it must struggle along with all the other “good ideas” for the very limited dollars available.

There weren't these issues when I was a kid. Schools were scratchily funded, but we were taught well. We didn't have ADD, ADHD, Authority Resistance Syndrome, a 1 in 4 hyperallergy rate and the other hallmarks of modernity.

We had different expectations and a zero entitlement presumption. If we wanted something, we worked for it or hoped for Xmas.

Today's teachers perform miracles, but at some point it'll be beyond even them.

Correct.

I didn't know we went to the same school. You must have been in the class ahead of me. :cool:

No, later, I saw your name on the dunny door under "for a good time, ring . . .".

Was that you that kept calling and then hanging up?

Now, would I do a thing like that?

How could you even think that I . . . . .?

I'm devastated.

Who told you?

you sound huffy. not sure why. i never said you had to agree with me or that you said i was wrong or any of that. once again, i am taking the things i have learned, coupling them with my own temperament and ideals and making a prediction about the future. more education has been shown to reduce everything from unwanted pregnancies to drug use to violent crime. i thought that was a pretty obvious connection. i don't even need a study or data to prove it to me. it's a no brainer, as far as im concerned

but, the children are the future and all that cliche, so if we need to prioritize where the money goes, i vote for primary and secondary education to be among the top five. top three even. our educational system is not great, it needs a major overhaul, but we shouldn't be cutting the budgets, we should be looking for ways to do a better job.

the us dept of justice did a study back in '01 (i believe) that showed about 35%of gen pop inmates and 50 percent of death row inmates lack a high school diploma or GED. in the general public only about 15 percent don't have a diploma or GED. i see a big difference. when we cut school budgets so drastically, the districts must compensate for the loss by laying off teachers and aides, cutting full day kindergarten and after school programs and using higher teacher to student ratios (which impacts the individual education of every child). it is inevitable (once again, to me) that there will be a negative impact on the education of the coming generations.

you guys talk about how great it was back then.....what was your class size? did you learn algebra in kindergarten? did you know what the word hyberbole meant by first grade and could you use it to great effect in your creative writing? did you have creative writing in first grade? could you name and locate over a dozen other countires on a world map when you were 5? were you taught to think critically in math before the age of 7? were you able to stay after school and join science explorers or reading olympics? did they have a violin teacher? i didn't get any of those things. we learned by rote and spent much of our time listening to teachers talk at us directly from a book. because of the budget cuts here we may lose all that and more. we are talking about 4 day school weeks and no kindergarten, no after school programs and no primary summer school. like i said, our system needs alot of work, but we've also come a long way. these budget cuts are a major step backward. in my not so humble opinion, an education is the key that can unlock any door. yes, you must be willing to work for "it" but if this continues, it won't matter how hard you work, there will be no "it" to get. a good education will be for the elite alone.

found an article
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...6458363dcc37eaf

Which in my state will be paid for with my tax dollars thanks to the voucher program.

BTW as if teaching algebra to K kids who primarily have concrete reasoning wasn't hard enough, try teaching it to BLIND K kids. :banghead:

If you say so.


I don’t recall saying that you did.


I have no doubt that as far as you’re concerned, it is a no brainer. Nevertheless, you have proposed a relationship “there will be less money for after school programs. less productive stuff to do equals more crime,” which as I have pointed out, is unsubstantiated by data. You may not feel that corroborating evidence is important in this case, but some people find arguments more persuasive with data than without.


I’ll agree that education should be on the short list, and your final point above.


Your inmate to GED ratio argument looks suspiciously like a post hoc ergo propter hoc.



In my school, between 15 and 25, and no I’m not including Band.


Are those results from the after school programs you are concerned will be de-funded?

false cause? interesting. i suppose it's possible: there may be lots of other reasons why people without a decent education end up committing more crime and having more unwanted babies. but it is a big difference and, unlike most false causes, is not a tenuous connection. the stat speaks for itself, i think. it's peculiar that you ask for data and when i provide it, you conclude it's false.

no, those programs are part of the regular school day. or, at least, they used to be.

jseal, you've mistaken my presumptions, assumptions and opinions as an argumentative attempt to persuade. i don't care to persuade anyone here, just saying what i think will be the consequence

If you are referring to the inmate to GED ratio argument, I didn't say it was false. I said it looks suspiciously like a post hoc ergo propter hoc. If you can substantiate why you believe there is a causal relationship between the two rather than a casual or coincidental one, then I suspect you'll receive more support and less resistance to your proposal.


No mam, I don't believe I have. Your post #4 was an unambiguous attempt to persuade. For example, "now...follow me here...since the structure, nuance and nature of these budget cuts end up hurting city districts most (read: high per capita crime), there will be less money for after school programs. less productive stuff to do equals more crime. more crime needs more money in the budget to fight and punish." You are clearly advancing - "now...follow me here..." - the proposition that the budget cuts you oppose will result higher future costs - "less productive stuff to do equals more crime". That is an argument. A reasonable one, but one which is not, to my knowledge, supported by data.


That you do not care to persuade anyone is up to you, but in the absence of persuasion by you and others like-minded, do not expect the funding cuts to fall elsewhere. Persuasion through argument is how civilized people get others to do what they want without violence.

I thought that blackmail, confusion and politics was how that happened.

I was referring to civilized people.

Damn, leaves us out then.

Its PEOPLE

I thought that was accomplished by badgering people on forums? But hey I am often wrong. :thumbs:

There is a lot of by-play here between people who have known each other a lot of years. It's been a while since I've seen a real sprayer here, they don't last long. Even in disagreement here, there is respect.

I read your post to mean that you think I should not disagree with opinions expressed by others, and that I not rebut their responses. If you wish to weigh in on the subject, please do; if not do not.

What do you suggest as an alternative? That I remain silent when people propose some particular public expenditure without justification? wyndhy and I disagree about the degree of confidence one might reasonably have in what she presented as evidence.

When I engage in behavior you disagree with, you seem to have no problem speaking your mind. Do you extend the same entitlement to those who do not share your POV? You are entitled to your opinion, as is wyndhy. Neither you nor she is entitled to be correct.

I agree.

It's Saturday night and my turn to be correct.

So how about those Mets?