I don't get Islam
 

Okay, I admit it. I don't get it.

I just read that the American hostage that was just killed in Iraq was tortured before he was executed. And I think we all remember the beheadings in Iraq too.

It certainly seems that the current manifestion of the Islamic religion seems to be similar to the Christian religion of the 1500s - when the Church ruled with an iron fist and there were the inquisitors/inquisition - and burning at the stake. The odd thing though, is that many folks try and deny it, yet the words Holy War, or Islamic Jihaad are all too common and all too easy to associate with the Muslims. Yet, we are also told the Islamic religion is not a violent one.

I realize that my point of view is largely amercanized, and Christian, but even in my open minded perspective, I am not coming up with the answers.

The question in my mind is, is the Islamic religion that violent, or is it just dominated by a vocal minority that is giving the religion - and arguebly a race of people - a bad name. I will also anticipate one answer, if it is just a band of a few, or a few small bands (vocal minority) why is the majority so silent?

Just laying it out there as a food for thought. I'm a "can't we all get along" guy, and have Muslim friends etc, but I am curious if anyone wonders about this like I do.

I'm not to clear on the issue either. But, I see it this way...Their traditions,culture and RELIGION have been intertwined for many years.So, if the majority of non-violent Muslims speak out against the violent minority....it seems to be a slap in the face to the Muslim "people" as a whole...in the eyes of the violent ones .

an example: the handful of right to lifers who bomb abortion clinics are condemned by the majority of right to lifers....the majority speaks out because the minority is made up of many races colors genders...not one traditional culture

Please don't rant to me about abortion or right to lifers...IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE

I think the point about the right to lifers as opposed to the clinic bombers is apt...the RTL movement is made up of people who share a common belief system, while the bombers are just terrorists...the same (I believe) applies to Islam, & as to why the majority don't speak out against those who promote terror in their name, may be it's just not a good time to jump up & announce that one is a Muslim right now, for obvious reasons...

I listened to a discussion on the radio the other day, where an expert on Islam, was making the point that Islam is not and has never perported to be a 'peaceful religion'. It is militant and always has been. While Jesus preached about turning the other cheek, rather than fighting for the right, much to the frustrations of many of the Jews he was preaching to, Mohammed had a far more militant approach, and Islam, therefore reflects this.

HOWEVER, the vast majority of Muslim people do feel that the violence, terrorism and torture we currently see is wrong, and certainly in Britain, they are far from silent about it. Maybe, in this country our generally more apathetic nature, is finally a good thing as it does allow Muslims who've been an intergral and accepted part of the British community for a long long time now, to be heard without fear of the consequences. It's impossible for me to say, though, since I've no experience of how Muslims fit into American society.

To extend your comparison with the Christianity of the 1500s, why do you think that that was allowed to continue. Why didn't the silent majority speak up? Well, because when people who are violent, torturous and unscrupulous are in charge, the peaceful majority are in considerable danger, as it is, without sticking their necks out even further.

Principles are all very well and good, but people with all the power, also have all the money, and the majority have to concentrate on feeding (not to mention protecting) their families, not changing the world.

Incidentally, though, you don't need to go as far as the 1500s to see Christians behaving in wholly un-Christian ways. In the UK we lived with the daily threat of horrendous terrorist attacks as a result of the conflict in Northern Ireland - Christians killing Christians for the sake of religion.

And what about the allegations of Allied troops abusing Iraqi soldiers in prison camps and on the streets? Not a very Christian way of behaving.

I'm afraid that religion will always lead SOME people to feel that they are right, and somehow better than other people....and this leads them to the misguided notion that it's right for them to harm people who do not share their religious views. Why this has to happen I don't know.

It's not Islam that I don't get, or Christianity, or even religion as a whole.....it's people. :o

The right to life supporters are, as I understand it, largely fundamentalist Christians, and show that religious extremism of any faith is very dangerous - don't single out Islam.

Islam is more than a religion - it is a way of life. Fellow muslims form part of a bigger fellowship and this is more important than ties of race, nationality, etc.

Loulabelle is right, as well. Islam is a crusading religion, originally intended to spread with conquest.

Personally, I would be happier if religion vanished off the face of the earth - it would be one fewer thing to fight about.

I agree mabelode as did Lennon:

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

I've had Muslim friends I really liked, and there's an aspect to the religion I think is missing for most Christians....especially in America....which is a sense of community associated with being Muslim and sharing that set of beliefs and customs.

However, I've read quite a bit of the Qu'ran and I really dislike a lot of the things it has to say about women and their role in society, and about the crusading nature of the religion. There seems to be a lot of hate and many rules in Islam...and it's not a religion that speaks to me.

Most of the Muslims I know are good people, though. They don't believe everything the religion or religious leaders tell them....just like I don't like many portions of the Bible and don't always follow Christian tenets. (And I certainly avoid listening to our new Pope because IMHO he has some very backward views on the world).

I focus my time on getting to know the *people* around me -- regardless of religion. I like people who happen to be Muslim, or Christians, or Jews, or Scientologists, or Athiests. While religion certainly helps make them who they are, it has more to do with the mind and heart than where they go to worship.

Problems we are labelling as "Muslim" and "Christian" are really more cultural than religious.

Iran and Iraq, two Islamic nations, fought for a decade and killed over 4 million of each other with bombs, gas and probably nerve agents.

Shi'ite and Sunni are at each others throats worse than the Orange and the Green ever were in Iran.

People are beheaded publically and have hands chopped off (sharia law) in Saudi Arabia.

The religious burning of Tudor times and the Salem Madness show that we are not far off the same. We like to think we are non-violent and civilised, but it's all just a veneer.

Well said Oldfart.

One thing I hate to hear people say is: 'Don't Muslims who behave badly realise they're making a bad name for the whole religion?' Yeah, right....whereas Christians/Westerners have never done that all over the ENTIRE FRICKIN' WORLD! LOL

I believe that people need belief systems and that the belief systems themselves are not the problem. The problem stems from the belief that your belief system should be imposed on everyone else.

Need, or want? If we require moral guidance, then how about a humanist approach without a god, like in Star Trek, for example. Belief in a god is not a need. I, for one, have no need. I require no reward for being "good" and no comfort to face death. However, belief in a god can be used to justify questionable behaviour, and that is a problem.



That is the crux of the problem. The fundamental basis of religion is that it is the one true way. That's a problem when there is more than one religion....

It’s not the specie, but the genus,...... or even the family. (family as in Hominid)

Are you expressing your own beliefs and thinking that the world would be better if we all thought that way???
















See we all do it.:D A belief system sans deity is still a belief :D

In fact, it's called "secular humanism," if I'm not mistaken.

I think I agree with you, Lil, "The problem stems from the belief that your belief system should be imposed on everyone else."

Exactly right. Just ask anybody of power. (They know because God told them so;) )

Funny, I thought the devil made me do it ;)

I did not!!

I didn't make you do anything. :rolleyes:











(I just keep sending the good thoughts ;) )

You tell her Dad! :mad:














rofl

Wait till I get you home, son.

Yer mother's going to clobber you something shocking!

(Lippy little bastard.)

I think this is exactly the problem, Lil......unfortunately the nature of belief is that we feel that certain things are THE TRUTH and therefore that other people should know and believe THE TRUTH too. It's human nature interferring with a 'higher plane' of thought - the two don't always sit well together, unfortunately.

Religion described by the written holy word (which ever scribe you follow) is open to personal interpretation through parables so that "THE TRUTH" can be anything one makes it to suit himself.

That, to me, is where it ALL goes wrong.

^^^ Just my personal interpretation :D

This does not just apply to religion. At one time it was "THE TRUTH" that the world was flat and that the Earth was at the center of the Universe and everything thing else revolved around it.

And it was neither a barrister nor priest that brought a light. :rolleyes:

You mean it's not??? Aww geez, now you've gone and spoiled it for me....


I think a lot of the problems we're having now, with regards to Islam, stem from not many westerners knowing much about it.

The religious similarities between Christianity and Islam are striking, I feel.
The basis of Islamic belief is "There is no god but The God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." Sounds familiar.
Muslims believe that God revealed his direct word for mankind to Muhammad and other prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. And WHO? Jesus? What the hell, he's one of ours!
Muslims hold that Islam is essentially the same belief as that of all the messengers sent by God to mankind since Adam, with the Qur'an codifying the final revelation of God.

See, as a religion, its more or less the same as Judaism or Christianity - hell they're all based on the same thing!

And just as we have fundamentalist Muslems, we have fundamentalist Christians and Jews. Anti-abortionists, the Irish and Israeli confilcts etc are all good examples of that.

I definitely think there needs to be much better education in schools about various religions. It's too easy, otherwise, to look at people wearing different clothes, or headgear, or doing things differently and assume (as happens so often) that something different is something to be afraid of.

How do we stop the Islam vs West problem from escalating? Look at their grievances. The terrorists aren't blowing us up because we believe in different gods. It's not a religious thing. They're blowing us up because we invade their countries, we let them starve while we grow rich, we exploit them.
There's no balance to this planet, the divide between rich and poor is a global one and it's rapidly growing. And it's not until we start addressing that problem that we'll see an easing of tensions. But it's got to be a huge correction - a sign from governments the world over that we're ready for peace.

Sigh. If only that were profitable.

CasperTG
Wow! Big rant! Awesome!

"They're blowing us up because we invade their countries, we let them starve while we grow rich, we exploit them.
There's no balance to this planet, the divide between rich and poor is a global one and it's rapidly growing"

Hey ,lets start an International Welfare Program.....it works so well here!!

And a sound rant!

It is growing on a shrinking planet in both size of the sides and the divide.
The situation is not a profitable one to address and even less profitable to ignore.

No! I started with the words "how about...". As for the "need" comments - if I, as an ordinary and unremarkable person, do not need religion, then it is not a biological or psychological requirement for other humans :)




Hmm! That's stretching it a little in some circumstances. I "believe" that unicorns, faeries and trolls do not exist, but I would say I am on pretty safe ground by saying that this is more than a belief, it is a fact. It is a small step to extend that to a deity. Long-standing, traditional religious belief does not make it any more valid than belief in a unicorn.

I'm afraid you can't say 'If I don't need it, nor does anyone else'...human beings are all different. We all have different psychological needs. Evidently we do, as a species need these beliefs or they wouldn't exist. I can't think of a culture on this planet that doesn't have some form of spiritual belief system - therefore evidently, humans feel the need to believe something.

I have never been Christened and do not subscribe to an awful lot of the Christian belief system, but to say that my life has not been influenced by it would be foolish of me. Therefore, to say I don't need it would also be foolish, as I haven't known life without the presence of religion. It shapes everything from our language, to our calendars, to our landscapes, to our laws - not to mention, art, music, popular culture. Many people would argue that it is our spirituality that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom, so to wipe it all out as simply being 'bad' we do, I think most would agree to our folly.

I have chosen not to subscribe to any particular organised religion, but to say that religion should cease to exist would lead to the world into chaos. Each individual on their own search for truth...confusion, fear, despair. In order to banish religion, you'd have to banish the human need to search for truth, and to do that would be to banish humanity as we know it.


Bloody hell....only in writing this have I begun to fully appreciate the impact of religion on the world!

I'm Catholic because I was raised a Catholic, but I prefer to think of myself as a man that just tries to be a good person.

One of my obligations as a Catholic is to speak about my religion to those that don't follow my faith because I have an obligation to mankind to help them.

I've never thought it was my place to "save" anyone. But then again, a few other aspects of my life don't exactly scream "good Catholic" either.

Religion is a lot like a government, it is a small group of poeple (priest, rabbi, minister ect) trying to change the lives and believes of others to their way of thinking.


P.S. Catholics are Chirstians believe it or not.

[QUOTE=CasperTG]You mean it's not??? Aww geez, now you've gone and spoiled it for me....



The religious similarities between Christianity and Islam are striking, I feel.
The basis of Islamic belief is "There is no god but The God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." Sounds familiar.
Muslims believe that God revealed his direct word for mankind to Muhammad and other prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. And WHO? Jesus? What the hell, he's one of ours!
Muslims hold that Islam is essentially the same belief as that of all the messengers sent by God to mankind since Adam, with the Qur'an codifying the final revelation of God.

See, as a religion, its more or less the same as Judaism or Christianity - hell they're all based on the same thing!

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The reason Judaism and Islam are so similar is because after Cain killed Able, Cain moved away from his birthplace. Cain is the man who started what is now known as the Muslim community. He was mad at God because God rejected his sacrifice and accepted his brothers sacrifice of fruits and vegtables.

If you look at what has happened in our own country of America with David Karesch, Jim Jones, The Hale Bop comminty, these people were following extremists in their own right. They were brainwashed into believing what there leader was saying was the truth.

If just one man has that much power to manipulate so many people into believing what he has to say is the truth and there is no one able to or are afraid to voice their opinion, you get people willing to do anything that is asked of them, no matter what the consquences are.

Most of the people that are targeted are the people who are poor and uneducated, not saying all, but most are, and when you throw in the martyr part of it, you have hooked them. They get their 15 minutes of fame, but don't get to share the glory of that fame.

Most of the leaders who lead these extremist groups are very rich and educated, look at bin Laden, heir to the Saudi throne, educated in the US, and yet you don't see him blowing himself up as a martyr, now do you? He has learned how to manipulate people to get them to do his bidding. How you may ask? He has the means and the education. He understands what his fellow muslims want and he tries to fullfill them, right or wrong.

At least this is my opinion.

If I'm not wrong Cain and Ableb have nothing to do with any of it. I do know that both Judaism (hance Christianity) and Islam can both trace thear root back to Abraham.



The problems do not lie in the religions themselves. the problem lies in the people who use religion to get what they want. Christianity is no diferent then Islam in this right. Through out the year Christianity has been used as a reason to kill. Look at our own country (the USA) here we killed and drove Navite Americans off their lands because they were godless heathens.

There are many who do not get Islam… :confused:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4805952.stm

Replace bin Laden, heir to the Saudi throne with Bush, heir to the Bush family fortune...and replace Muslims with kronies, and it makes you think, huh?

My definition of need is evidently different - without religion I do not immediately die, starve, go insane or suffer complete social rejection. so humans do not NEED religion. Individuals may derive some comfort or strength from it, but, still, not a need.




Much of what you mention is history. In more primitive times when the world was scarcely understood, religion was useful to try to explain why humans were subject to both disaster and great natural benefits.

To say it has influenced our music, language, calendar, etc is true, but so what? We would still have (other versions of) these things, as do other cultures.

I agree that some sort of moral code is a requirement for civilised life, but why not divorce it from spirituality? Civilised cultures (but, note, not all inviduals) naturally default to basic laws like no theft, killing, etc, so this just needs codifying.


Sorry Jax, we are hijacking your thread.

Booger is correct (I can't believe I said that!), Cain & Abel had nothing to do with it...the division started with Israel & Ishmail, both children of Abraham...the geneology gets a little toocomplicated to recount here, but it does explain the long-standing feud between Hebrew & Arab...


Again, close but no banana...Bin Laden is not heir to the Saudi throne, but rather the illegitimate son of one of Saudi Arabia's richest most powerful industrialists...most of the bin Laden fortune is in construction (hence Osama's boast that he knew, as an engineer, that the planes would bring the Twin Towers down), but also a good portion comes from, guess what, OIL...I'll wait for the shock & awe to sink in now....


That's right, the Bin Laden family has been doing business with American oil companies for many years, including one owned by the Bush family...

Hi Jack or not, I am glad to have generated discussion. Anytime thoughtful discussion is given to a topic that is a good thing. This is a touchy one, so kudos to everyone for respectfully handling their spin.

See how educated the pixies are here. You guys caught the bullshit and called me on it. Hurrah for you all. You won't be on the news showing the devastation you cause by being a human bomb.

People are going to believe what they were taught by their elders while growing up, whether we believe in the same cause or not. Is killing someone right, if you are in a war, or on the street when someone does something to piss you off? Depends on how you were raised. I have known people who don't seem to give two shits if they kill someone as long as they get their revenge, damn the consquences.

Everyone in some way or another has a belief system that they follow, whether you believe in a higher power or you believe in no god at all, it is still a belief. Just like if you were born in a Mormon home, before the state of Utah banned the practice of polygamy, men were encouraged to have more then one wife. Some men still do practice their right to more than one wife and they pay the price even though they feel they are right.

No matter what religion you follow or don't follow, killing is still wrong. In my opinion those muslims that are involved in this jihad are following a man and his words, not the words of the Quran, or the muslim teachers. Just like those people who followed Jim Jones, David Koresch and others.

To put it short and sweet, tell a man what he wants to hear and he will follow you to hell, if he believes what you say.

mabelode,

I’m unfamiliar with cultures which are free of religious practices. I don’t mean to suggest that there are none, only that I don’t know of any. Even if not entirely devoid of religious practices, which cultures would serve as useful models?