The answer is simple and brutal.

If the child is going into a "bad" environment, the child should be adoptable by the thousands of childless couples who would kill for a kid and be wonderful parents, instead of becoming one of a generation of unloved thugs.

Call it a stolen generation or whatever, but the end justifies the means (this time).

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Calm, quiet, smooth, devastating

Had an interesting conversation with one of my Lost Boys yesterday. My Lost Boys all come from mothers with multiple babies by multiple fathers. This was the Lost Boy with the pants. He was speaking about his dad's house and then said his dad has 9 kids. I said how does he take care of 9 kids and he hemmed and hawed. I said, "When you grow up what kind of dad do you want to be?" We discussed a variety of parenting situations and he said he wanted to live with his kids. I asked him why his dad didn't. (I was pretty brutal in this conversation.) Then I asked him again how he would be a different dad and then told him, "Men have no business making babies with women they don't want to live with." And you could see the realization hit his face.

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The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

Sharni that little piece of paper is much more than a little piece of paper. Have you stopped to consider what happens to your assets when you die with out that little piece of paper? While married couples should have wills having one is the only way for you two to insure that your assets go to each other and not each others parents, or siblings.

I personally hate the "It's only a piece of paper" statement. It's a legal, binding contract. Besides that, the whole belief that it is just a piece of paper, is sort of contradictory. If it is such a non-issue what's the big deal about going down to the court house and getting that little means nothing piece of paper?

I've heard a lot of people say that they don't want that little piece of paper because they're afraid of how it will change their relationship. Yet these same people will go and have kids without seemingly a care in the world about how doing that will change their relationship. Also if you don't think relationships change on their own with or without a piece of paper you're deluding yourself. My wife and I got married hoping things would stay the same but knowing they wouldn't.

I've wanted to respond to this question for some time, but wasn't sure how to without offending anyone. So please understand that these are my perceptions and opinions, and there might not be a lot of fact to support them.

I'm single and childless - there is one fact, so my opinions might differ from those of you in different situations.

I was a little suprised by Lou's response because my perception and experience of persons in Great Britain were different. I've found the people I know tend to have more of an opinion like Sharni's. Perhaps less of a belief in a the marital institution. They live in committed relationships often with children but without a marriage. At first I was suprised by it, but I accept it as being different than the "American" tradition.

Also, as a single childless person, I don't necessarily believe you need a marriage to raise a child. I think to have an adult (or MORE!) interested in raising a child to be a productive member of society is more important. There have been times in my life where the motherhood need sparked within me and rather than run out and find a husband to create my own I've considered adoption. I've never had an overwhelming urge to reproduce, but to parent. I hope that makes sense. I have the means to raise a child and the desire, but it is incredibly hard for a single person to adopt. And I refuse to just find a baby daddy just so that I can fill my desire to raise a child.

I know none of this really answers Lil's question. But I think the root of the problem is that people all too often are making babies they didn't intend to be making. Apparently these folks all missed that health ed discussion on how sex is the means to reproduction.

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When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and swing.

maddy- I understand you completely. I always assumed I'd be a parent, knew I was meant to be. However I was not sure about the spouse part. I felt less desire to be married/partnered off, than to parent.

My new bumper sticker:

18 minutes = 18 years
Don't make children with someone you can't even live with.

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The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

Define "bad environment"


When she gets married she hopes he'll change and he hopes she won't. Usually they are both wrong.

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1) Different countries have different laws regarding estates.

2) I did not start this thread to discuss the merits of marriage. People tend to think that the choice they made is what everyone should do. As some have voiced here.

3) I am curious if the children born pre-marriage numbers have any impact on the abortion rate. Are more women in general getting knocked up? Are fewer women protecting themselves? Do these numbers have anything to do with Aids statistics? Is this just a matter of birth control or is this a change in cultural/ societal beliefs?

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The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

My assets will go to my partner and kids....Married people arent the only ones that have wills you know
By Australian law we have the same rights as a married 'piece of paper' couple!


I personally hate when people think they can tell others how they believe they should live their life! My life, my choice, build a bridge and get over it!


Kids change your relationship, married or defacto, and i know many of both types who have the belief their life will just cruise along merrily the way it was when they were kidless. So your point is?? What does this have to do with having 'the piece of paper'
If that was pointed at me personally, i certainly did not think having kids was going to be a complete walk in the park, and i knew things would change.

Bilbo and I behave no different to a married couple, we are seen in the eyes of the laws to be a 'married' couple. I do not see the point in a 'piece of paper' nor do i see it making a difference to our relationship!

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Really??? They pay them a lump sum? What was the purpose of that? To reduce abortion rates?

__________________

The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

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We could send you our extras!!!!

__________________

The practice of putting women on pedestals began to die out when it was discovered that they could give orders better from there.~ Betty Grable

If I wanted your opinion, I'd remove the duct tape and ask you for it.~ Me
<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
One man's dream is another man's nightmare~~~~> §¤ Lilith ¤§
~>My Scribbles<~
==>Gone Shopping<== ~Just a Quickie~ *~A Celebration Vacation~* ~Surprises~ Sleeping With the Window Open
What Did You Do Today? Self Defense Class ~Short Sweet Snippets~ § Summer Spin § Story Challenge Submission Pajamas

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Sharni I honestly don't care how others live their lives as long as it doesn't directly effect how I live mine. If you're happy then fine. I still find it contradictory when people say that a simple piece of paper doesn't mean anything when it obviously does. Because if it truly doesn't mean anything then what is the big deal about getting one?

You are right that an unmarried people (in the US at least), can get all the legal rights as married couples. That's if they are willing to get a lawyer and have him draw up all the contracts etc. and once you've done that it would have been cheaper just to go spend the $30 on a marriage license.

You and Bilbo are obviously committed to each other. Before I got married 11+ years ago I didn't understand the big deal either. I did it because I knew it was what my wife wanted, and it would make her happy. Today I love being married, it changed how I viewed our relationship, and it makes me happy to call her my wife. Even though just as you as far as the government was concerned we were already married. Common law marriage is a wonderful thing.

Lastly I'm not judging you. If you're happy, and you're raising your kids to the best of your ability then I couldn't care less what lifestyle you care to live. That doesn't preclude me from saying when I don't understand or necessarily agree with something.

I just dont see the point in paying lots of money to get a pice of paper that will not change how we live or feel. We consider ourselves married, we are happy, and it works for us

Being married makes no difference to ones commitment is my point.

Its just as easy to get a divorce as to walk out of a defacto relationship. If the commitment isnt there in either relationship it wont last, regardless of if you have the 'piece of paper' or not

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